Usually car accidents cause the most on-duty deaths yearly, but traffic stops are also high on the list. People don't seem to realize that criminals are not rational thinking people who have the same sense of moral values as the rest of civilized society. Regular people think that seeing a cop walk up to a car with a hand on their sidearm is overreacting, because the cop should intuitively know that they're not out to hurt them. Cops don't have the benefit of knowing what they're walking up to in these situations. The car with the taillight out could be being driven by a twice-convicted felon who is carrying weapons or drugs, just raped, assaulted or killed someone and the possibility of arrest becomes a life-sentence. The criminal just thinks "they're stopping me because of the crime I just committed." They then either flee or attempt to kill the officer. Joe Citizen, on the other hand, gets flustered because they think a cop is abusing their power by having their hand on their gun. Look at the current group of criminals who commit minor crimes in order to ambush first responding police, fire, and ems personnel. Or look at the current sovereign citizen movement. Scary stuff that most people conveniently ignore because it doesn't allow them to paint their perfect picture of America. I also totally agree with the above poster who commented that the criminals determined the justice doled out. If they wanted to be tried by a jury, they should have given up and fought in the court of the land.
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How many cops does it take to stop a car? 23
- Thread starter bmc
- Start date
yeah,but they chose not to,and,i'm not losing any sleep over 2 dead felons...........it's a minor inconvenience for a guy to remember all that when a cop pulls you over....i don't like it,but i get it,and try to remember just how many cops have been killed at "routine" traffic stops.....
Believe me, I'm in agreement that they chose their path and ultimate end, and I'm not losing sleep over it, either! I'm only pointing out how a lot of people seem to forget that criminals don't operate within any rational or ethical behavior. There's countless stories that I've heard first-hand from criminals who committed serious assaults or murders for something as simple as a perceived disrespect to them or their friends (giving a hard look, bumping into them, etc.). I do believe in our courts and our system of justice, but again, the roadside reality isn't a court with the benefit of civility. The criminal that makes the decision to violently resist arrest also makes the conscious decision to forgo the court system and their rights at that time. They would rather play the odds that they'll get away or go out in a blaze of glory. I also believe that a lot of the armchair qb's would cower when confronted with something as simple as hearing a noise outside their window at night, or their burglar alarm going off.
I also want to say again that I don't agree with rogue cops or police corruption. I do also firmly believe that the vast majority of cops on the street are not a bunch of wanna-be assassins and thugs looking to systematically violate the rights of others. Look at the responding officers to Sandy Hook. They're still off the road because of the horrors they encountered.
i've never really been able to understand the police chases ....the odds of getting away these days are next to zero.....they have not been good since the installation of the two way radio in cop cars..........i know a few guys that did it,and all were caught...one guy wrecked and got killed....and the decision to run seems to happen in a second.....
^ totally agree Tbone.
To further one of your points, I would have no problem if an officer approaches me with his hand on his sidearm. Because I know he won't have to use it. Again, if these guys had given up during the several hours of opportunities they had, they would most likely be alive and have the luxury of our system spending millions of dollars defending and housing them. They declined that very generous, civil, and compassionate offer.
To further one of your points, I would have no problem if an officer approaches me with his hand on his sidearm. Because I know he won't have to use it. Again, if these guys had given up during the several hours of opportunities they had, they would most likely be alive and have the luxury of our system spending millions of dollars defending and housing them. They declined that very generous, civil, and compassionate offer.
there are lots of dash cam vids of them getting run over or near run over by hua drivers too............
This is true. The recent episode in New Mexico (I believe) involving the mother in the minivan with her kids illustrates a lot of things, too. A regular traffic stop that gets escalated by the driver to the point that the officer attempts to arrest her. She fights, and her 15 year old son hops out and also fights with the cop. Then they hop back in the minivan as backup arrives. They then take off and cause a pursuit, and one of the responding officers starts shooting at the van. People were quick to (wrongfully) criticize the initial officer attempting to arrest the driver. They were quick to (rightfully) criticize the backup officer who started shooting at the van, but there was almost no criticism of the person who started the wheels rolling in the first place: the driver. Everything focused on how the cops placed innocent kids in danger while conveniently forgetting that if the mom driving the car didn't act like an idiot in the first place, she would have been sent away with a ticket at worst, and nobody would have been endangered. They also didn't have a problem with a 6'0" tall 15-year old hopping out and fighting the cops.
Also, for the cop-bashers, I suggest you go to your local precinct and ask if you can participate in a ride-along with a patrol officer for a shift. Many depts. afford this opportunity, and I guarantee that it will open your eyes to the reality of modern policing. It will also give you the opportunity to really ask questions first-hand and gain some knowledge.
Unrepresented
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What percentage of traffic stops involve pulling over people that have recently committed unsolved felonies? How many citizens are on the streets that have this mentality? Why should everyone else be treated as if we're likely to be a dangerous felon?
"It only takes one..."
Yeah, but applying the "it only takes one" approach to life had consequences in that it reduces public support, maybe not so much with white, middle class folk who don't get harassed, profiled, or otherwise hassled as regularly, but certainly with minorities who do.
Yes, there has to be some balance of safety for officers, but at some point with both sides escalating everybody loses.
You can bury your head in the sand all you want and pretend that criminals actively committing crimes aren't caught every single day during "routine" traffic stops in this country, but the fact is, they are. Uniform Crime Statistic Reports are available in every state, and federally. If only one police officer in this country in the last 20 years was killed or assaulted in the line of duty during a "routine" traffic stop, your argument may have had a little weight. The facts, however, directly contradict you. The fact is that a lot of cops every single year are killed, permanently disabled, or otherwise injured during "routine" traffic stops, by the occupants of those vehicles. There is no reason that a cop on the street shouldn't take precautions to keep themselves safe.
Like I previously suggested, head over to your local precinct and see if you can ride along. San Diego PD is a fairly busy Dept. Also take a look at the Officer Down memorial page on the web.
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
If this is about workplace safety there are a number of fields that are far more dangerous and deadly than that of police officers, several of which can be watched from the safety of your Discovery Channel.
I'm not saying that police shouldn't be protected, but to protect them, you're seeking to expose us to increased danger and loss of liberty. It's potentially a zero sum game with citizens (such as you or me) suffering.
A cop walking up to a car with a hand on his holstered gun is only dangerous to the occupants if they attempt to injure the cop. And policing is far more dangerous than you'll admit to. Cops get hurt and die every day doing things as routine as checking on a suspicious vehicle that got called in by the neighbors. Policing is a necessity, it's dangerous, and caution is necessary to ensure safety.
EDIT: I also understand that you're an idealist, and I respect that. I'm a realist, and my views are shaped accordingly. I also don't choose to watch the "reality" shows on the Discovery Channel. I work my job from the "relative safety" (in your eyes) of my patrol car, thank you very much.
finally one point we can agree on.... i would say the average 711 clerk is at least as much risk ...
....but you fail to consider the actual job....certainly there can be larceny afoot at 711 but they can usually assume you are there for beer or lotto tix,and can see you coming in.....plus there are often others around ......a cop has no such luxury.....just walking up to check you out is a risk....i fail to see how allowing for that costs you any freedom ......showing them your hands and doing as requested seems a reasonable thing for you to do to be on your way ....arguing about it is hardly going to speed up the process....
here cops don't even need probable cause to pull you over,and even set up random roadside checks that often delay you for a half hour while they look for things to ticket you for.........that i object to.....but we don't have a real constitution....ours was written by some montreal remittance man,not a washington or paine........
Tbone hits it about right on the head. And if you think it's absurd that a cop has his hand on a gun while walking up to a car - the first thing I did on a convoy was point my belt-fed machine gun at people while signalling them to move over and stop. At a distance of 100 meters
. And ya, if you've got nothing to hide from the cops - do the guys some favors: turn off the ignition, roll down the window, and everyone keeps their hands where they can see them. Use your Sirs and Ma'ams, and if you haven't done anything too bad then odds are that the day is going to go reasonably easy.
Peace,
Greg
Pennsylvania just decided cops don't need a warrant or permission to search your car anymore. Yay freedom.
how did they get away with that?.....if they can make that stick there it's hard not to imagine other jurisdictions drooling over the possibilities...
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
Their hand on their gun is part of it --a symptom-- rather than the complete problem. It ties in with the larger narrative of treating all, or at least a significant number of citizens as perceived criminals.
I've been checking the forecasts in the netherworld and they're expecting a cold front.:|
I'd like to hope that we never come anywhere near that level domestically. I'm of the opinion that the less people pointing guns at each other, the better.Tbone hits it about right on the head. And if you think it's absurd that a cop has his hand on a gun while walking up to a car - the first thing I did on a convoy was point my belt-fed machine gun at people while signalling them to move over and stop. At a distance of 100 meters
My attorneys on youtube have advised me against rolling down my window more than is necessary to conduct a conversation.:|
