How many keys are there?

[elberon]

My favorite trivia question with which I've tripped up music professors. Not uncommon for musicians to forget to account for the enharmonic keys. The typical guitarist has very little music theory so not surprising. I had a worship leader/guitarist tell me the song we were doing was in the key of C, never mind one of the chords was a Bb. I think in his mind, if he didn't use his capo, it must be in C,

If you got the professor on that (enharmonic equivalents), wow, where did they teach? You can have any number of chromatically altered chords in a piece and still have it centered around "C tonality" (or key of C). If the song ends on a "C" it's likely in the key of C. A Bb chord in the key of C (or more often C-minor) isn't unusual, it's something called the "subtonic" scale degree. You're talking about pop/rock music here.

 

[drumvsbass]

People who get their panties in a knot over this aren't really musicians. They might have educational books for sale though. The names of the notes are just labels. There is no difference between F# and Gb or E## for that matter. The only reason that this comes up is that music has an inferior labeling system. Go practice.

 

[drumvsbass]

how about this... 12 major, 36 minor. (natural, melodic, and harmonic) Still only 12 keys.

 

[elberon]

People who get their panties in a knot over this aren't really musicians. They might have educational books for sale though. The names of the notes are just labels. There is no difference between F# and Gb or E## for that matter. The only reason that this comes up is that music has an inferior labeling system. Go practice.

 

[elberon]

There's actually a huge difference in an F# or Gb in terms of harmonic function. F# is the leading tone in the key of G. Gb is not. E## is the leading tone (part of a dominant chord in the key of F# major or F# minor) and F-natural isn't whether they sound the same or not. Write a chart for educated, accomplished instrumentalists using V chords spelled D-Gb-A rather than D-F#-A in the key of G and you'll get some some really funny looks around the room.

 

[SteveCS]

Temporary modulation doesn't change the key signature of a song.

I didn't say anything about temporary modulation, such as one might see in the blues, or 'songs'.

how about this... 12 major, 36 minor. (natural, melodic, and harmonic) Still only 12 keys.

Those minors are scales not keys.

 

[stringtapper]

The divide between those answering “12” and those answering “15” is most likely proportional to the non-music reader/music reader divide.

If you’re only ever playing by ear, then thinking of more than 12 keys probably isn’t useful.

If you do read music, then you probably know quite well that there are 15 unique key signatures that you may encounter in musical scores.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

how about this... 12 major, 36 minor. (natural, melodic, and harmonic) Still only 12 keys.

Natural, melodic, and harmonic minor all share the same key signature and are not considered "separate" keys in classical western music theory. A famous example is Beethoven's "Für Elise." There is prominent use of G# (for example the E chord in measure 3) but we don't need a special key signature for that; we just say "A Minor."

A fundamental music theory concept is that composers are 'allowed' to use accidental symbols to write notes not in the key signature. For example, you could have F#, G#, or even D# (as in the Beethoven example) and it's still 'key of A Minor.'

 

[lfmn16]

For guitarists there are 2 keys - the one they think they are in and the one they are actually in.

 

[SteveCS]

For guitarists there are 2 keys - the one they think they are in and the one they are actually in.

Quote of the day.

 

[pappabass]

All you need is a capo!!

 

[Tom Gallo]

Not at all.

You made a vague statement and haven't, at least of this post, explained why you think that.

 

[Nev375]

Oh look, a thread with political overtones and church figure bashing. How original. I'll report it so a mod can join in.

People like you are what's wrong with the world today. Grow another layer of skin and a spine already.

We don't need any more Karens calling the authorities every time they see something that doesn't fit their comfort bias.

 

[Rib 13]

As a side note, am I the only person here that giggles a little bit when a guitarist says, "The song is in F# and the chords go from F# to Bb"

 

[groooooove]

this one is objective, the correct answer is 15/15.

you can claim there are twelve, but that claim doesn't hold up once we start investigating.





in order for the 12/12 answer to hold up you'd need to prove the non-existence of the enharmonic keys... problem is... they clearly exist.

yes, on tempered instruments they sound "the same." but the system of tonal music functions in such a way where they are a byproduct of the sequence of key signatures, and they are utilized and in certain occasions and therefore they exist.

I don't play many pieces written in C# major, it's usually written in Db. but i definitely have played either. as well as the other enharmonic keys.

I studied under some really fantastic musicians who were certain the keys "feel" different. I don't disagree with them. A string quartet (non-tempered instruments) playing in the flat vs sharp spelling of a given key will have a different flavor. it may be subtle, but it's there. And hey, the discussion here is "dopes it exist," not "the difference is so subtle i dont care."

btw, if you play in a rock band and rarely/never read music, i totally understand you personally having no reason to think outside of the 12/12 idea. that's sort of fine. but, since we're talking about it, again....

the answer is 15/15.

 

[CatOnTheBass]

Even if you don't read/write music at all, you can still understand why it's 15, not 12, like this:

By definition there are 7 notes in the familiar C Major scale, C D E F G A B. Imagine a spectrum or axis with C# D# E# F# G# A# B# (7 sharps) at the "north" or "sharp" pole, Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb (7 flats) at the "south" or "flat" pole, and C Major (zero sharps, zero flats) in the center. Starting from the middle and moving in the "flat" direction, is a spectrum of 7 flat keys, from "slightly flat" with 1 flat to "everything flat" with all 7 notes flatted. Likewise there are 7 sharp keys, from 1 sharp to "everything sharp" with 7 sharps.

Even for people don't read music and haven't memorized the Circle of Fifths, I think it's still pretty easy to visualize that a 7-note scale can have anywhere from 0-7 sharps or anywhere from 0-7 flats.

7: C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
6
5
4
3
2
1
0: C D E F G A B
1
2
3
4
5
6
7: Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb

7 sharp keys + CMaj + 7 flat keys = 15

The people who answer "12" are also correct. It's not a "wrong" answer. If you visualize it as a circle instead of a line, then the sharp keys overlap with the enharmonic flat keys, and it's like a snake eating its own tail. From that perspective, 12 is also a correct answer. That's my main beef with the Victor Wooten video, him telling people their answers are 'wrong.'

 

[Eddie LeBlanc]

There are 88 on a Grand Piano.

 

[DavC]

12 keys ( enharmonics ) if you're practicing scales on the piano ... working on B , then Cb is moot ...

and there are 3 different minor scales .. !?

i believe the most important tool = your ears - fitting scales to chords

then i start to get lost while working on tri-tone substitutions ..

 

[doran.dragic]

False. Blues is the foundation of 20th century rock and pop music, and most of us understand it quite well. Blues has been seriously studied at the academic level for going on 100 years, using the same music theory tools as any other genre of music. The blues is "real music" and to think otherwise in this day and age is a toxic and antiquated prejudice.

I'm not sure what you're implying here because I never claimed blues is not real music. I just said it follows a different set of rules which it obviously does because in common "western" music theory a dominant chord is always a carrier of tension. In blues a dominant chord can not only be a tonic chord but also feels like a resolution which is vastly different from traditional western music.

Also the V7 chord doesn't carry the same weight as it does in western music. In rural blues forms there might be no V7 chord whatsoever:

 

[CatOnTheBass]

I'm not sure what you're implying here because I never claimed blues is not real music. I just said it follows a different set of rules which it obviously does because in common "western" music theory a dominant chord is always a carrier of tension. In blues a dominant chord can not only be a tonic chord but also feels like a resolution which is vastly different from traditional western music.

Also the V7 chord doesn't carry the same weight as it does in western music. In rural blues forms there might be no V7 chord whatsoever:

You're right. I think my disagreement was more with the person you were quoting, than with you, or in other words, indirectly agreeing with you. No disrespect intended.