Classical music, Broadway shows, big bands, high caliber gigs, any situation in which the parts have to be played exactly as they were written... There's no room for illiteracy here.
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How much music theory do you really need to know?
- Thread starter IamGroot
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Classical music, Broadway shows, big bands, high caliber gigs, any situation in which the parts have to be played exactly as they were written... There's no room for illiteracy here.
Rhythm of course; but with a great sense of honesty, my friend, I tell you that it is not like this. At least not for me. When I play (everything by ear), I barely know the first five or six fret notes, where and what they are. And I have to think slowly, to determine "where and what" if you ask me. For the rest, I just rely on my ear, eye and hand coordination, to determine where the next note (or group of notes) I want to hear/play is. Thinking really fast "in progress". But, trust me: I have no idea about intervals, scales etc. This has never been an obstacle to support the band or to my solos. On the contrary: if the guitarist or pianist etc. changes the key in which a tune is played, maybe because the singer is not comfortable etc. I have ZERO problems to play it immediately. Absolutely illiterate, NOT proud of it, mind you: because often (always) I cannot explain in the due manner. At age 66 I cannot teach and I really would like to do that; but I play anyway... I can offer this: when I was at school, I was used to study in a "visual" manner, making big drawings; even about history, technical matters. Even thru my career in the satellite control I have always been "different", but here it would require a long and useless digression...
Agree, completely. It COULD be done, with the necessary time to memorize the parts, but an illiterate within a classical ensamble would be apples and oranges. Jazz big bands I would agree 50%...
Thread title is begging the question: ...in order to do what?
What happens if you don't think it sounds good?
What happens if you don't think it sounds good?
I agree with what you say but excuse my ignorance what if you struggle to play some of what's written down, there are some bass lines I can't do so I would improvise, just wondered what someone reading music would do.
As far as sight reading, I have had experience with big bands and stage shows. If you don't have great reading skills, you wont pass the audition and you wont survive the gig. PS..theres sheet music for the drummer too.
Big Bands have maybe 500 tunes spread over 2 to 3 tupperware containers for each section. They call a number, you pull out the sheet music, play it, put it away, maybe never to be seen again. You dont get to take the music home to practice.
Yes, generally speaking. Agree completely. And agree even more for those super pro environments, with lots of elements. There's anyhow still some space for jazz bands "in between" a combo and the huge band (talk about a seven, ten elements band) where you can be "the" resident, permanent bassplayer. Not talking of one shot occasions as you mention, in which you have to be auditioned, obviously.
Let's just be clear here:
Sight reading is not necessarily theory, in fact it isn't as fdeck said, he is a busy jazz bass player and he has the humility to admit that he does not know theory. I also played with retired symphony guys and they can't solo beyond 2 choruses.
Theory could be helpful if you are composing and composing includes improvisation. It is composing on the fly
Rules of harmony can be broken. Listen to new classical composition. They are no different from avant garde jazz. My friend also told me that classical composers are actually improvising. I think he meant that all these forms, sonata, symphony etc are variations of the main theme and theory can help.
However popular music does not really need theory. Basically it is an academic extravaganza to dissect Africa music, gamelan, Cuban music, folk music etc. Those things you learn by assimilation. Consider watching Bela Fleck's journey in West Africa.
Harmony and chordal expression can be resolving or dissonant. Most people like harmony to be resolving
Knowing theory does not equate to a very solid time, which is crucial more than harmonic and chordal skills. There is also the concept of phase lock. Classical musicians approach it differently than jazz and rock musicians.
You may get more jobs as someone who can sight read but that does not give one the right to call others that can't as illiterate. Many composers who are bold and daring have mixed sight readers with feel players or even ethnic musicians successfully.
There are many working musicians in these board who cannot sight read or know theory and they are not losing gigs because of that. There are probably others who compose as well. Again Christian Henson, who is one of the founders of Spitfire Audio is a self taught play by ear keyboard and synth player. As of 2019 he says he cannot sight read, never went to music school. He composes film scores. With the technology provided by DAW he is able to produce notation for real musicians who went to school. Imagine that an illiterate giving a literate notation!
Music is about feeling and conveying emotion and self/community expression. You also have to differentiate it from entertainment and commercial success. There is also musicology and music history and music technology. But music, it's been there before universities and books were invented.
If this civilization is somewhat extinguished and a few humans survive, music will be the innate thing that they will rediscover.
BTW - I think I know some jazz, chordal and harmonic theory and encourage a little learning is not bad but not necessary. Do what you need to be successful and I have no idea who and what your circumstances are.
Sight reading is not necessarily theory, in fact it isn't as fdeck said, he is a busy jazz bass player and he has the humility to admit that he does not know theory. I also played with retired symphony guys and they can't solo beyond 2 choruses.
Theory could be helpful if you are composing and composing includes improvisation. It is composing on the fly
Rules of harmony can be broken. Listen to new classical composition. They are no different from avant garde jazz. My friend also told me that classical composers are actually improvising. I think he meant that all these forms, sonata, symphony etc are variations of the main theme and theory can help.
However popular music does not really need theory. Basically it is an academic extravaganza to dissect Africa music, gamelan, Cuban music, folk music etc. Those things you learn by assimilation. Consider watching Bela Fleck's journey in West Africa.
Harmony and chordal expression can be resolving or dissonant. Most people like harmony to be resolving
Knowing theory does not equate to a very solid time, which is crucial more than harmonic and chordal skills. There is also the concept of phase lock. Classical musicians approach it differently than jazz and rock musicians.
You may get more jobs as someone who can sight read but that does not give one the right to call others that can't as illiterate. Many composers who are bold and daring have mixed sight readers with feel players or even ethnic musicians successfully.
There are many working musicians in these board who cannot sight read or know theory and they are not losing gigs because of that. There are probably others who compose as well. Again Christian Henson, who is one of the founders of Spitfire Audio is a self taught play by ear keyboard and synth player. As of 2019 he says he cannot sight read, never went to music school. He composes film scores. With the technology provided by DAW he is able to produce notation for real musicians who went to school. Imagine that an illiterate giving a literate notation!
Music is about feeling and conveying emotion and self/community expression. You also have to differentiate it from entertainment and commercial success. There is also musicology and music history and music technology. But music, it's been there before universities and books were invented.
If this civilization is somewhat extinguished and a few humans survive, music will be the innate thing that they will rediscover.
BTW - I think I know some jazz, chordal and harmonic theory and encourage a little learning is not bad but not necessary. Do what you need to be successful and I have no idea who and what your circumstances are.
I suppose this is a reiteration of what logdrum is saying, but reading ability and knowledge of theory are not related. Theory tells you how you can make up your own lines or talk about the music with your bandmates. You don't need to know any theory at all to just read. I would go as far as saying reading is the opposite of theory.
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Days I feel like it! it’s been many years since I’ve had music theory, I played brass and low brass instruments , I’ve actually forgot bass clef, but I remember treble clef.
Yes, you play the song as written. No theory needed. You learn the song.
How exactly do you think theory is needed for this?
I'll help. It isnt.
Sunday matinee, the understudy for Liza Doolittle is going on in place of the marquis actress, and five minutes before curtain the music director announces to the orchestra "Note, all of Liza's numbers will be played down a whole step."
Au contraire. It's impossible to learn how to read music without learning music theory.
To be able to read music, it is mandatory to get used to basic music theory elements like, to name a few, clefs, pitchs, time signatures, rhythmic figures (for notes and rests), intervals, scales, flats, sharps, keys, bars, cycle of fifths, cycle of fourths, chords, arpeggios, dynamics... Without the understanding of these concepts it's impossible to read music.
Wow. Just wow. So every junior high band member is a music theory expert got it.
For those of us who only play bluegrass and gospel grass, knowing the I,IV,and V in the keys of G,C,A,D,E and Bb is more than enough. Also knowing which notes are in each major scale comes in handy when learning walks between chord changes, but once you learn where the right notes are when headed to a chord change it doesn't require much thought.
The hillbilly that taught me to play never went too deep into theory. He just said "Hit these notes. They are on the scale." Being the inquisitive type I wanted to know why those were the right notes, so I did some studying on music theory and my daughter who has many years of training helped me learn more about theory.
The hillbilly that taught me to play never went too deep into theory. He just said "Hit these notes. They are on the scale." Being the inquisitive type I wanted to know why those were the right notes, so I did some studying on music theory and my daughter who has many years of training helped me learn more about theory.
How can someone "learn the song" when there's no time, no recorded material to listen to, the song was never heard before, the songs belongs to an unfamiliar musical genre, all the available information about the song is written in a piece of paper and the person can't read music?
I'll help. That person won't learn the song.
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Even a basic reading skill is better than illiteracy. Everyone benefits with knowledge.
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My opinion - for what it is worth - is that you need to know how to read sheet music to read sheet music.
No theory required, but it can help, especially if the chords are shown With chords and a knowledge of theory,I can scan the sheet music quickly and see its say something like its 1 6 2 5 intro, 1 4 1 5 verse, etc. Count it off!
Theory helps me remember songs when my ear dies. What are the chords in Jenny (8675-309)? What key is it in? What mode is the first chord?
No theory required, but it can help, especially if the chords are shown With chords and a knowledge of theory,I can scan the sheet music quickly and see its say something like its 1 6 2 5 intro, 1 4 1 5 verse, etc. Count it off!
Theory helps me remember songs when my ear dies. What are the chords in Jenny (8675-309)? What key is it in? What mode is the first chord?
To be able to read music you need to learn to read the notes on the staff and how they correspond to the mechanical things you need to do to produce them like, pluck the string, push the key, or blow the note, first.
And that is taught before any kid or adult knows the notes that form a diminished chord and why, or have to know that an ASCENDING SCALE, is a peculiarity of the minor scale adopted in modern music, that its form is frequently varied by accidental chromatic alterations, to satisfy what are assumed to be the requirements of the ear; and as these alterations most commonly take place in ascending passages, it is usual, in elementary works, to give different forms of the minor scale, for ascending and descending.
You don't need to know cycle of fifths, cycle of fourths, chords, arpeggios, to read dots on paper. But if one keeps at it, they will.
Yes at first you learn the staff and the symbols used on the page to read the music but that is not music theory in itself, it is part of it though.
Matter of fact there are a lot of readers that have been reading music for years and still don't know these things. Of course IMHO
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