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How much power do we really need?

I tend to think that cabinet efficiency/sensitivity is one of the most overlooked specs out there. I've played all kinds of gigs with a good 350W head into a great 410 cab and I never ever was short on power. I wished that I could have turned up more many times, but I didn't need to.

I am amazed at the "need" for 1200W+ in the minds of many players. I tend to think that something in their EQ section might need some serious rethinking.
 
I dont agree.
In a big room with people singing along etc and no PA support for the guitars it doesnt matter how good a musician they are, they will neeed to turn up.

IME.

Hahaha. You're right, I'm sorry. I consistently forget that there are people playing places without professional PA systems and sound guys. My maximum volume needs are stage/rehearsal volumes. In those cases more wattage is unneeded. However, if you are taking over the duties of the PA with your stage amps, the power requirements become the same as the theoretical PAs you are replacing.
 
...Having grown up during the 60's we played hundreds of gigs with our Bassman 50 or Dual Showman's. The Acoustic 360 was a mere 200 watts and we thought it was crushingly loud. I saw Cream play a baseball stadium in 1968 and Jack Bruce was using 2 Marshall 100's - I guess he would be cheesy-weenie too.

My guitarist's back in the late 60's and early 70's all thought they needed a Fender Twin or a Super-Reverb. Each of those CRUSHED my Dual Showman without even trying. Those were the bad old days in my book.

My Acoustic 301 1x18 cab sounded great with a Marshall Major 200 watt tube head, and was loud enough. I used to live on the 3rd floor (no lift). It was managable, but at 3am after 5 hour strip club gigs, it got a little old. :ninja:

BTW, when I saw Cream (twice), Jack Bruce used two Marshall stacks (total 16x12!) and two Marshal Major heads (200 watts each). He was also mic'd, and his resulting EB-3 tone was basically a distorted midrange roar with an undercurrent of thin mud.

I like having a lot of power and a clean warm tone. I have 3 cabs to choose from: 2x10 (epi), 4x10 (swr goliath II), and 1x15 (swr sob). I can mix and match to fit the gig. In addition, I have 2 amplification rigs: A CA-6 in a rack with 2 different pre-amps, and a pre-Fender SWR 350 silverface. I am happy because I can fit my rig to the style of music and the room/PA support situation. :p
 
My guitarist's back in the late 60's and early 70's all thought they needed a Fender Twin or a Super-Reverb. Each of those CRUSHED my Dual Showman without even trying. Those were the bad old days in my book.

My recollection maybe fuzzy but I could swear both those amps had volume controls. Just requires a musician that knows how to use them.

BTW, when I saw Cream (twice), Jack Bruce used two Marshall stacks (total 16x12!) and two Marshal Major heads (200 watts each). He was also mic'd, and his resulting EB-3 tone was basically a distorted midrange roar with an undercurrent of thin mud.

Again my recollection is that they (Bruce and Eric) carried two but didn't always use both of them. Depended on the venue and when I saw them they none of them (Bruce, Clatpon or Baker) were mic'd. FWIW by TB standards 400 watts is bare minimum. ;)

I like having a lot of power and a clean warm tone. I have 3 cabs to choose from: 2x10 (epi), 4x10 (swr goliath II), and 1x15 (swr sob). I can mix and match to fit the gig. In addition, I have 2 amplification rigs: A CA-6 in a rack with 2 different pre-amps, and a pre-Fender SWR 350 silverface. I am happy because I can fit my rig to the style of music and the room/PA support situation. :p
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To each their own I seem to be fine with my supposedly under powered V4b or Music Man 130. Heck I've played a jam w/ my B15s.
 
It never ceases to amaze me how many people take this Mungification literally. :confused::rollno::D

Hey, I was in a benevolent mood. My honest belief is that you should start at 750 and go up. Someone around here said words to the effect of, "It's not how much power you have, it's how much you have left." Learn it, live it.

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We still need a minmum of 600 watts and a 410. Anything less than that is a cheese-weenie.

Is there a Cheese-Weenie club I can join? I'm qualified with a GenzBenz GBE-1200 and the Berg HT/EX stack. Since I'm selling the 1200 soon and buying the Shuttle 6.0 and other head is only 400 watts (Glock HeartCore) - I'll be a member for a long time!

Dan K.
 
My guitarist's back in the late 60's and
early 70's all thought they needed a Fender Twin or a Super-Reverb.
Each of those CRUSHED my Dual Showman without even trying. Those
were the bad old days in my book.

My recollection maybe fuzzy but I could
swear both those amps had volume controls. Just requires a musician
that knows how to use them.

Now, now, no need for feigned memory-loss. I'm sure you know that
young guitarists in 1970, whose idols were Page, Clapton, Hendrix, etc.,
might have tended to play loud. Might. :p :p :p

Some of those kids have probably grown into actual musicians by now.
But expecting teens to play rock softly seems silly, IMHO.

In any case you are of course correct, and guitarists are commonly
known to play through small tube rigs now, but you will probably find
the volume up pretty high.

That argues for your assertion that we all just need small bass rigs.
The problem is that it is only true part of the time. When a drummer,
a PA carrying 3 voices, and two modest guitar rigs are in full cry at a
musically exciting level (let's say about as loud as a marching band or
a symphony orchestra), the bass has to musically balance. Obviously it
also has to happen in a vast array of acoustic spaces with widely
varying amounts of crowd noise.

We are up against simple psycho-acoustics--Fletcher-Munson curves, anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Furthermore, power is overrated! :D Paraphrasing a JBL tech manual:

Psychoacoustically, a ten-times increase in power results in a level
which most people judge to be twice as loud. Thus, a 2000-watt
acoustical signal would be twice as loud as a 200-watt signal, and a
200-watt signal would be twice as loud as a 20-watt signal.

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Let's assume the same unstated constants as the above JBL factoid
(whatever power rating method at whatever freq, etc.) for both my
amps. One is 350 watts into 4 ohms, the other is 1200 watts bridged
mono into 4 ohms. The 1200 watt amp is not a lot "louder" than the 350,
and it is certainly not "twice as loud," which would require 3500 watts (theoretically).

In my experience, the power I need is different in every space and
with every band I play. Having too much means I have enough. Having
too little means I hurt the music. :cool:

If we were all just playing chamber music concerts in good acoustic
spaces, things would be easier, right? :p :p :p
 
I played the Marquee Club in London (yes, that Marquee) with an Ampeg SVP preamp, a 150 watt Laney power amp and 2 4x10s. I started with it on 4 and had to turn down to 3 after the first song. I've played loads of gigs (including big halls) with a 150watt Trace head through an 8 ohm 4x10. I've also done loads of gigs backlining with a Trace 300SMX head through a single Trace 1153 1x15 compact cab, and never got it past 4. I once stood outside a gig where a support band was backlining with that gear and it was loud as hell, and the amp was on 3! I also used to play in a metal band who used modded 100W Marshall full stacks, using a Marshall Superbass 100W tube head through a cheap 2x15 HH cab, and I've never struggled for volume. Bear in mind almost all of the above have been in rock bands. For me it's about frequencies, but YMMV.

Ironically I do now struggle slightly with my Ashdown ABM500 through my 2 Aguilar GS112s, but again, that's a tone/frequency thing as much as anything. My 300SMX into my 1x15 was easily as loud as the Ashdown/Aguilar combination, and far more punchy. To be honest I wouldn't know what to do with some of the monster rigs that some Talkbassers use, but having said that I like to hear myself "in the mix"; I don't like to be loud onstage at all. I guy I know has masses of gear, uses immensely powerful gear on stage, and yet I could quite easily play all the gigs he does with a third of that gear and a fraction of his wattage. He obviously needs something different than I do, which is fair enough. Whatever makes it work for you.
 
I gig regularly with a 25-watt Ampeg B-15N. Of course I have a good sized PA, but I still use it on gigs. I seriously doubt that with any amp I've owned, whether using stage volume or PA, that I've used more than 150w worth of any amp I've ever owned.
 
Is there a Cheese-Weenie club I can join? I'm qualified with a GenzBenz GBE-1200 and the Berg HT/EX stack. Since I'm selling the 1200 soon and buying the Shuttle 6.0 and other head is only 400 watts (Glock HeartCore) - I'll be a member for a long time!

Dan K.

Hey, I want to join the Cheese-Weenie club, too! In the 26 years I've played bass I've never played through an amp with more than 350 watts and I've never needed more. In fact, in many situations I've gotten away with a whole lot less power. Some especially memorable gigs:

Rock cover gig in a medium-sized club, no PA support for bass, 4 piece band (2 guitars, bass & drums). My amp for the night was a 70's Hiwatt 100w tube head through the club's cab (a Hartke XL410) and the thing was so loud I never had the volume control past 11 o'clock.

Blues gig, a 5 piece band gig in a club (capacity approx. 250-300), again no PA support for bass. I used a 70's Ampeg V4B head with a Trace-Elliot 2x15 cab. Again, I had the amp more or less idling, I think the highest volume setting was @ 10 o'clock.

I could tell you many more examples, but you get the idea. But the important part is I've always tried to find players who know how to control their volume, that's the key. Besides, I truly and absolutely hate playing too loud.