Double Bass How to approach Simandl?

[David Potts]

How to Approach Simandl?

I know Simandl is discussed quite a bit, but only in fragments, and as a student (currently without a teacher due to finances..err, lack thereof) I have difficulty knowing how to tackle Simandl. Questions come up, such as: How long should I spend on this exercise? Should I just go over it, and go to the next? or should I practice this exercise until I can play it flawlessly and THEN go to the next? Did Simandl, seriously think that a beginner player could go straight from a D on the g string to a B on the e string? Is that even fair?

Also, I'm curious to know how you teachers handle Simandl with your students. Is it always definite that Simandl will be a part of the curriculum? Or does it depend on the student? If Simandl is a part of the curriculum, how do keep them motivated? (since we all know, Simandl is not the most exciting, or musical book out there).
Everyone on these forums suggests to "start with Simandl," but that only implies obtaining the book. So, what about after that?

I have a love/hate relationship with Simandl. It initially focuses heavily on the left hand and leaves a lot for a teacher to infill (which is why general advice is always " get Simandl/get a teacher"), especially about bow holds and bowing. The old Tutors (Bille, Nanny, Lotter, etc) all have similar shortcomings.

Ludwig Streicher's Books 1_3 are more recent, have a lot of instruction in them and have turned out many fine students.

I must admit I have all the above books but never found time yet to critically work right through them. I am also aware of several American attempts often mentioned in these forums, eg Tom Gale's publications.

So, Simandl is only part of my approach and is taken in the order of 1st., 1/2, 2nd.,3rd, 5th positions (ie, all the easy scales) then 3 1/2, 4 and 2 1/2 (more sharps and flats). The positions are interspersed with other technical work and ramping up the difficulty of some repertoire that uses the scales studied and adds bowing and expression. Because most of my students are playing in school or amateur orchestras I am always happy to got thought their parts with them because what I always set out to teach them is orchestral bass.

Just Simandl alone would drive me and my students to distraction!! Ask yourself "what can Simandl do for me?" and make a list, scoring 0 - 10 against each point. This could answer some of your questions above.

I will do the same when I have thought more about the topic and then come back into the discussion.

Cheers,DP
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Last edited by David Potts : Today at 06:49 PM.
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[ThomClaire]

Thank you David! For posting this so soon.

I will make a list this evening and then post it. Meanwhile, could you also tell us what repertoire you give your beginning students?

Thanks

 

[ThomClaire]

Alright, I will edit this with more if I can think of any, but I feel that I'm coming up short.

1. Provide a good grasp of the notes on the finger board
2. Good hand-shape for closed position.
3. More intuition for fingerings (ie. knowing at least a decent, if not good, fingering while reading an unfamiliar piece)
4. Stamina. (not really sure about this, considering anything could do this)
5. opportunity to practice keeping left-hand and right-hand relaxed. Essentially, it's a book of exercises, and you could use those exercises for a lot of different purposes. As a beginner, I think it's beneficial to play this exercises while focusing on a particluar aspect of your playing, such as keeping the hands relaxed.

As for scoring 0-10, I'm not sure if you meant ranking priority/importance, or something else.

The things is, Simandl is just so boring, and can be really time consuming if you don't know how to use it (or have a teacher that knows how to use it). But, at the same time, the musical things I want to do, are too advanced for me right now.

 

[David Potts]

A quick few questions -

1. Which edtion of Simandl are you using?
2. How far are you into it?
3. How far have you gone with a teacher?

Somewhere I have buried a 100+ year old edition but on the shelf I have two more modern ones, CarL Fischer (Zimmerman/Drew) and IMC (Sankey). Out of habit I use the Carl Fischer one because of its traditional ID of positions.

In just flicking through the two versions I see that Sankey fleshes out the same material with more helpful suggestions, particularly about bowing and styles from his Part 4 onwards (which is Part 3 in Drew).

I was suggesting scoring the success of your Simandl edition in relation to each of your points above and perhaps more. I don't think Simandl intended his Tutors to provide more than a framework for teachers to expand on. The "My First Simandl" (Carl Fischer) seems to be a recognition of this.

Keep asking questions. I like your enquiring mind.

Cheers, DP

 

[MrLenny1]

I went thru book 1 of The Nanny Method.
It improved my playing immensely.
Proper fingering was probably the best thing I got out of it ( I was a sloppy rocker).
Go thru it one exercise at a time, one page etc...

 

[ThomClaire]

A quick few questions -

1. Which edtion of Simandl are you using?
2. How far are you into it?
3. How far have you gone with a teacher?

Somewhere I have buried a 100+ year old edition but on the shelf I have two more modern ones, CarL Fischer (Zimmerman/Drew) and IMC (Sankey). Out of habit I use the Carl Fischer one because of its traditional ID of positions.

In just flicking through the two versions I see that Sankey fleshes out the same material with more helpful suggestions, particularly about bowing and styles from his Part 4 onwards (which is Part 3 in Drew).

I was suggesting scoring the success of your Simandl edition in relation to each of your points above and perhaps more. I don't think Simandl intended his Tutors to provide more than a framework for teachers to expand on. The "My First Simandl" (Carl Fischer) seems to be a recognition of this.

Keep asking questions. I like your enquiring mind.

Cheers, DP

I believe mine is the Carl Fischer edition. I'll check when I get home. I've gone through to the 10th position, and have used the exercises for thirds.

I feel like the main purpose of simandl is to provide a lot of exercises that can be used in many different ways. So, without a teacher, it's very difficult to use simandl at all.

How far do you go into method books before introducing beginning repertoire to your students?

 

[damonsmith]

I use it as a foundation. I talk to my students about all the other methods, and I get them on actual solos pretty quickly, relating the Simandl to the solos. It is super solid, it still works. I love it.
One they can play a few excercises and read well I either get them on Vivaldi, Corelli or Bach for the Young Bass Player.
I use Simandl an octave up and the Bach Suites to teach thumb position.
I use it in combination with Petracchi and Bach, and it is really effective. I make students aware of Billie, Rabbath, etc.

 

[neilG]

So, without a teacher, it's very difficult to use simandl at all.

I think the same thing can be said about any bass method. Learning the bass properly is not a DIY pursuit unless one is particularly talented and observant.

Ukulele maybe....

 

[ThomClaire]

I think the same thing can be said about any bass method. Learning the bass properly is not a DIY pursuit unless one is particularly talented and observant.

Ukulele maybe....

You know, I've seen many, many people on this site say this. Maybe you're right, or maybe not. What is most certain about this statement, is that it is discouraging, and not very appreciated. That's in my opinion. Now, I will say this: I'm a 20 year old, working a full time job, and living on my own. I can't afford a teacher. To add to that, all of the bass teachers here are old-time players, and started on some other instrument, and think that the bass is super easy

David,

I just checked my edition of Simandl and it is actually the Sankey edition. Also, I'm still curious what pieces you have your students start out with first. Most people say Vivaldi, Corelli or Marcello sonatas, but, to be perfectly honest, these sonatas do not motivate me to play bass.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[damonsmith]

Vivaldi's Sonata #1 is the one I start with. It is plenty motivating with the right attitude.
The triplets are fun and get you ready for jazz playing. Just making a nice Bb for the first note will teach you a lot about bass playing.

 

[ThomClaire]

Vivaldi's Sonata #1 is the one I start with. It is plenty motivating with the right attitude.
The triplets are fun and get you ready for jazz playing. Just making a nice Bb for the first note will teach you a lot about bass playing.

Thanks, Damon, I'm going to try to find a copy of this and start learning. I think it'll help me see what techniques need work, and give me something to PLAY, rather than...read?



I want to bring up another subject regarding practicing. The traditional "method" of practice is generally accepted as repeating a phrase over and over until you get it right. Now, I think we all know that this isn't effective, because the phrase/passage must be practiced correctly, so that it can later be played correctly, without having to consciously think about all of the technique and whatnot. I have only heard very briefly about other methods of practicing, "not focusing" (a la, Victor Wooten's "The Music Lesson"), and a few others that I don't even have a name for. One that I thought was very interesting was regarding medium-big shifts. I can't remember where I read this, but the person writing advised to play the first note of the shift, being aware of the position of the fingers/hand/wrist/arm/shoulder of BOTH the left and right hands, and then the same with the second.

Anyways, I want to ask what "methods" of practice you, teachers, advise for Simandl (and, David, I am very much looking at you and the book, The Living Touch in Music and Education). I guess this can be very dependent on the student and his/her needs, but general answers are still very helpful.

To summarize my question: What methods of practicing, other than repition, do you imploy/teach? Specifically for Simandl, but also for musical pieces.

 

[damonsmith]

With Simandl, I think just playing it over and over is best - with correct technique. You have to be comfortable sounding rough. Once it sounds good it becomes "playing" not "practice".
Try to focus at first on correct hand position rather than pure intonation. Good intonation is most helpful when your hand has the facility to correctly make hairline adjustments.
Getting it in tune "any old way" is how bad habits are formed.

 

[Tom Gale]

Run quickly......

Tom Gale

 

[ThomClaire]

Run quickly......

Tom Gale

I don't understand?

 

[neilG]

Run quickly......

Tom Gale

That's not useful at all, Tom.

ThomClaire, Sorry to break up the flow here. I'll leave Tom Gale to explain himself, but.....

Tom is correct in one respect: the Simandl Method as published originally has truly outdated fingering concepts, which, as Tom will point out, ad nauseum , is due to the old setup of thick gut strings set high off the fingerboard. IMO, the newer editions are only slightly better.

Most teachers nowadays will modify those fingerings to a more current technique, it's not that big a task. Legions of bassists have learned and are continuing to learn to play using Simandl, because it is a very comprehensive and progressive method. It's not 100% complete, of course. That would be a 20 volume set of books.

So, keeping with the tone of this thread, part of MY way of approaching Simandl is to make sure my student has fingerings that make sense as a modern player, and I do it with traditional fingering technique, ie. 1-2-4, positions every half-step, no pivoting.

 

[redwookie]

...the Simandl Method as published originally has truly outdated fingering concepts, which, as Tom will point out, ad nauseum , is due to the old setup of thick gut strings set high off the fingerboard. IMO, the newer editions are only slightly better.

Most teachers nowadays will modify those fingerings to a more current technique, it's not that big a task. Legions of bassists have learned and are continuing to learn to play using Simandl, because it is a very comprehensive and progressive method. It's not 100% complete, of course. That would be a 20 volume set of books.

So, keeping with the tone of this thread, part of MY way of approaching Simandl is to make sure my student has fingerings that make sense as a modern player, and I do it with traditional fingering technique, ie. 1-2-4, positions every half-step, no pivoting.

This is a great discussion. I've been playing EB for a few years now and picked up a EUB for portability primarily. Slowly looking for an acoustic UB. I had a teacher but demands of family and work don't give me the time right now. So I'm exploring Simandl on my own (Stuart Sankey blue cover edition) along with Ed Friedland's excellent Building Walking Bass Lines.

The Simandl fingering is not a problem so far but I can see where eventually Simandl's fingering method will collide with my rather ingrained 1-2-3-4 EB/guitar fingering style. I'm tall with big strong hands and use my 'a' (pinky) finger a lot on EB/guitar. While I am happy to learn a traditional method, it's really hard to not use my pinky since the 'a' finger should be the 4 in my head. So when running scales or practicing walking I'm trying 1-2-4 as well as 1-2-3-4 which takes a bit more time but I'm not really ready to give up 1-2-3-4 yet.

Could you give an example of a 'fingering that makes sense to a modern player'?

 

[ThomClaire]

One thing that I have found frustrating about Simandl fingerings, is the approach to fourths and inverted fifths, and also going from the G string to the A or even the E string, and playing both of those notes with the same finger, without a pause.

For instance, in the Sankey edition, for the 4th position, the first exercise for "Exercises in the 4th position", there's a part where you're supposed to go from the D on the g string (pinky finger) to the B on the E string (again, pinky finger), with no pause. I personally don't see how this is possible.

 

[redwookie]

One thing that I have found frustrating about Simandl fingerings, is the approach to fourths and inverted fifths, and also going from the G string to the A or even the E string, and playing both of those notes with the same finger, without a pause.

For instance, in the Sankey edition, for the 4th position, the first exercise for "Exercises in the 4th position", there's a part where you're supposed to go from the D on the g string (pinky finger) to the B on the E string (again, pinky finger), with no pause. I personally don't see how this is possible.

Looking at that Exercise, there are 5 (by my count) string jumps in the Exercise using the 4(pinky). It's a toughie. I _can_ do that G string - E string jump but to do it smoothly in an arrangement, not so sure. My teacher strongly encouraged me to always find close notes to connect when walking and I always figured that was a jazz players bias against dissonance (like avoiding playing the 4th of the scale) but I'm learning there are ergonomic physical reasons as well.

 

[Tom Gale]

Yes, I can. That's why I wrote "Triangulation of Fingering Systems". It covers the traditional 1,2,4 - which I call the 'closed hand tech', the 1, 2, 3, 4 -the 'open hand tech' And combining them as well as a limited pivoting tech plus the thumb positions above and below the octave.
That's a lot but it all works together and is a favorite among EB players learning the upright as well as UP players wanting to go beyond the usual 1, 2, 4. It's available through Lemurs, I. S. of B. and the ASODB.
Tom Gale

 

[redwookie]

Thanks. I'll check it out : )