Ah, Chicago! I did my master's at Northwestern - near Chicago a LONG time ago. R. Fashbender was my bass teacher. Loved it!
Tom Gale
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Double Bass How to approach Simandl?
- Thread starter David Potts
- Start date
Ah, Chicago! I did my master's at Northwestern - near Chicago a LONG time ago. R. Fashbender was my bass teacher. Loved it!
Tom Gale
The exercise you are referring to is not that far from the beginning of the book. It is, to my mind, really about (1) learning the notes available and relative to one another in the "new" position, (2) finding three straight lines of notes (your fingers ARE the "frets), (3) stretching out with your pinkie and back with your index finger as you cross in each direction to stay on those three straight lines, (4) to play the notes in tune and connect them musically, and (5) continually study how your note spacings must change as you move between positions.
This sort of structured approach to learning each position is at the core of my love/hate relationship with Simandl.
To try and seamlessly execute the string crossing that you quote is IMO near the bottom of the list and could work as an stand-alone exercise to do in 1st or Half Positions (where you are much more like to encounter such moves) or later in the book, when you are practicing intervals. It involves both technique (timing and coordinating your hands, also whereabouts on the bow and in which direction, etc) and musicianship (listening). There will always be a slight gap but don't forget that the bass sound is as slow to decay as it is to get going. The few decaying vibrations of the old note will carry on in the belly while your hands quickly move without jerks to the next.
Musically it is important not to inadvertently accent the following note by being physically out of balance as you land on it, regardless of whether you are playing a scale or bungey-jumping from Half position into Thumb position. I would rather have a slight gap between the notes and work on the acoustics.
Cheers, DP
This sort of structured approach to learning each position is at the core of my love/hate relationship with Simandl.
To try and seamlessly execute the string crossing that you quote is IMO near the bottom of the list and could work as an stand-alone exercise to do in 1st or Half Positions (where you are much more like to encounter such moves) or later in the book, when you are practicing intervals. It involves both technique (timing and coordinating your hands, also whereabouts on the bow and in which direction, etc) and musicianship (listening). There will always be a slight gap but don't forget that the bass sound is as slow to decay as it is to get going. The few decaying vibrations of the old note will carry on in the belly while your hands quickly move without jerks to the next.
Musically it is important not to inadvertently accent the following note by being physically out of balance as you land on it, regardless of whether you are playing a scale or bungey-jumping from Half position into Thumb position. I would rather have a slight gap between the notes and work on the acoustics.
Cheers, DP
Doesn't matter how ingrained it is. You have to re-learn double bass fingering. EVERY SINGLE TALL BASS GUITARIST WITH "BIG HANDS" I HAVE EVER COME ACROSS WHO HAS SAID THIS CANNOT PLAY THE DOUBLE BASS WELL.
There are four finger methods, but they live in a whole different world than just using bass guitar technique.
If you want to be serious about the double bass get serious, learn it from the ground up. Forget everything about the bass guitar unless you ARE PLAYING bass guitar. Many have tired, no one has won this stubborn, silly battle.
Here's a rough example. This is an etude from Simandl that one of my students is working on. I've just put in some (it's not complete here) fingerings that have a better flow musically, positionally and in terms of what I call a physical progression.
Since this is supposed to be an etude in the II/III postion, I've opted to put more of the exercise there. I also expect him to be able to do the printed fingerings despite their awkwardness. I would probably have him learn the first few measures as printed so he learns the relationships of the positions. David Potts mentioned that in his post below and it's important, IMO.
We could revisit this etude when he gets to III/IV and V/VI positions.
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This is true, I teach this sort of fingering second for this one. I use Simandl's fingering for the scale not the Etude first. I like practicing all that awkward shifting. Getting that stuff to smooth out puts you in a different place.
OR...... Lets say its in cut time and about 140. This is where advanced techs makes life easier. The prepared player can start on 2nd finger Db, and, using the open hand tech (1,2,3,4), play the whole thing without a shift! It is very advanced but a player can achieve it. DON'T TRY IT WITHOUT PROPER PREPARATION! Once you have achieved this technical level, life is better!!!!!
Tom Gale
As a beginner on UB I spent close to 2 years working on Simandl (Sankey) as well as jazz studies. my teacher routinely wrote in his preferred fingerings. As I got more proficient I appreciated his revisions. As for the exercises being boring, proper technique requires practicing with precision. IMHO I could always improve my technique even on exercise #1. If students are saying the exercises are boring they are not digging deep enough
As usual Tom Gale is clouding issues. None of his ideas here are at all useful
to a young man trying to work through Simandl without a teacher or yet another "tall pork chop player with big hands" trying to be lazy about learning double bass.
Advanced students would surely find Tom's books and ideas working through them with a teacher who is also using them.
to a young man trying to work through Simandl without a teacher or yet another "tall pork chop player with big hands" trying to be lazy about learning double bass.
Advanced students would surely find Tom's books and ideas working through them with a teacher who is also using them.
FWIW, watched a guy play at Chicago Jazz Fest yesterday. Lots of 1-2-4 and 1-2-3-4 combining. Especially during his solos. Less higher up the neck which is understandable (and helps me see where 1-2-4 is critical).
Wow. Just played the first 8 bars. The Simandl fingerings really jump around. Hard to keep the thumb accurately in back of the middle finger (which I'm sure is part of the point of the exercise). I'm not really what the underlying reason is for all that jumping around when there is obviously a more economical alternative as exemplified in your blue fingerings.
The argument can be made that playing up the A and E string in Simandl's time was awkward due to the thick strings and their height, although he does sneak some of those fingerings in now and then. The other, and IMO more important reason would be to "anchor" the positions by starting in lower ones with known fingerings from previous chapters. I'm on the fence as to how necessary that is. Some students need it, some don't.
I would still practice the more awkward fingerings, you'll need them at some point, guaranteed. And I thought my fingerings were in red.
Simandl is just a super solid base. If you get stuck on it, you won't get far - same if you try to get around it. Ultimately, you need a lot of options for fingerings and fingering systems.
Certain things that will work for a single tricky phrase will wear you out if you try the same for a repeating phrase.
Certain things that will work for a single tricky phrase will wear you out if you try the same for a repeating phrase.
Good to hear. I like to play a variety of styles so options are always welcome.
I'm far enough into Simandl to see that it's serious woodsheding time without many melodies or hooks to get caught up in. I'm also beginning to understand the love/hate relationship and why so many players so hesitantly, almost painfully, recommend it. Luckily, I kinda enjoy just playing away at technique.
Now, to bring up the (almost) necessity of having a teacher along with Simandl, it seems that the biggest part of this, apart from the fingerings, is having something musical to go along with Simandl. For instance, when a student gets to the fourth position, his/her teacher assigns him/her a musical piece (jazz tune, classical solo, orch. rep., etc) that correlates to the techniques that have been covered in Simandl so far.
Now, this gives me an idea. What if we had a thread here on TalkBass that was just that? Of course, there are a lot of variables from student to student, and what makes a musical piece techniquely applicable depends on a lot of different things. But we could have a thread where teachers on the forum suggested musical pieces (jazz tunes, orchestral excerpts, solo pieces, etc) that is at a (generalized) appropriate level for specific sections of Simandl. For example, "if you've worked through the first 6 positions of Simandl, and feel comfortable with these exercises, try [solo piece]. It rarely goes above 6th position, and is a great piece for shifting/pivoting/string changes/whatever." Teachers could even suggest multiple pieces.
Now, do not think that I am saying that this could replace a teacher. By no means, do I think anything on the internet could replace an in-person teacher, but I do think that it could be very helpful. Just a thought.
P.S. Thanks to everyone for you responses. This is a really great discussion, and has been a great help to me already. Can't wait for more great advice!
P.P.S. I've been learning "Pile Up" () by ear. It's taking forever, but because it's something I can hear, and enjoy, and already love, it's FUN. Now, what's more important is that I am finding that I am learning way more easily because of this simple fact. Now, I'm having to transpose for standard tuning as I go, but after that, it starts with a G (D string) and slides up to the A (Dstring) and right back down to the G. The G on the D string can be a hard one to get in tune, as there is no easy reference point, but I am actually getting it (though slowly). For me, this goes back to the idea of learning technique for the sake of music, rather than they sake of knowing technique, which, in my opinion, is VERY important to distinguish. Also, while working on this G, I have discovered that I play the G about half of a semi-tone flat, EVERY time. That's weird right? I mean, I am unbelievably consistent, at playing flat. Why is this? It didn't take me long to realize that when I try to sing the G (even while playing open G), I start flat, and quickly modulate to in-tune. This made me realize that I am playing G consistently flat, because it is semi-permanently flat in my head.
The reason I am sharing this is because this is the sort of thing that a teacher would point out to you, and I thought it was interesting, that just by learning this technique because I want to learn this song, I am learning and understand much more quickly and easily. Now, all I have to do is figure out how to hear the notes in-tune, and then I'll play in tune (at least, very close, and maybe 75% of the time, but that's great IMO!). Again, just wanted to share, I know I'm digressing from the subject of the thread.
Now, this gives me an idea. What if we had a thread here on TalkBass that was just that? Of course, there are a lot of variables from student to student, and what makes a musical piece techniquely applicable depends on a lot of different things. But we could have a thread where teachers on the forum suggested musical pieces (jazz tunes, orchestral excerpts, solo pieces, etc) that is at a (generalized) appropriate level for specific sections of Simandl. For example, "if you've worked through the first 6 positions of Simandl, and feel comfortable with these exercises, try [solo piece]. It rarely goes above 6th position, and is a great piece for shifting/pivoting/string changes/whatever." Teachers could even suggest multiple pieces.
Now, do not think that I am saying that this could replace a teacher. By no means, do I think anything on the internet could replace an in-person teacher, but I do think that it could be very helpful. Just a thought.
P.S. Thanks to everyone for you responses. This is a really great discussion, and has been a great help to me already. Can't wait for more great advice!
P.P.S. I've been learning "Pile Up" () by ear. It's taking forever, but because it's something I can hear, and enjoy, and already love, it's FUN. Now, what's more important is that I am finding that I am learning way more easily because of this simple fact. Now, I'm having to transpose for standard tuning as I go, but after that, it starts with a G (D string) and slides up to the A (Dstring) and right back down to the G. The G on the D string can be a hard one to get in tune, as there is no easy reference point, but I am actually getting it (though slowly). For me, this goes back to the idea of learning technique for the sake of music, rather than they sake of knowing technique, which, in my opinion, is VERY important to distinguish. Also, while working on this G, I have discovered that I play the G about half of a semi-tone flat, EVERY time. That's weird right? I mean, I am unbelievably consistent, at playing flat. Why is this? It didn't take me long to realize that when I try to sing the G (even while playing open G), I start flat, and quickly modulate to in-tune. This made me realize that I am playing G consistently flat, because it is semi-permanently flat in my head.
The reason I am sharing this is because this is the sort of thing that a teacher would point out to you, and I thought it was interesting, that just by learning this technique because I want to learn this song, I am learning and understand much more quickly and easily. Now, all I have to do is figure out how to hear the notes in-tune, and then I'll play in tune (at least, very close, and maybe 75% of the time, but that's great IMO!). Again, just wanted to share, I know I'm digressing from the subject of the thread.
It's a good idea, but don't overlook that what Simandl wrote is music, and you should be able to approach it as such. If a student can't make some musical sense out of 4 and 8 measure phrases made of scales, arpeggios and sequences, they're going to have trouble with anything more complicated, IMO.
Since there's very little real solo literature in the lower positions, I have students work from etude books that are not methods, of which there are many.
It would be easy to come up with excerpts that stay within the confines of specific positions. Start the thread!
For sure. That music in ANY fingering is special in that it is really tough for most human beings to play out of tune for very long. The more I play and teach the instrument the more I am just astounded by the power of this music and it's affect on intonation.
