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Double Bass How to balance Pizz / Arco volume? Volume pedal?

R

Rastus_01

Aug 17, 2009
52
0
Cairns Australia
#1
Hi, I have a Full circle pickup with a Platinum Pro pre which sounds great for both Pizz and Arco. The thing is, Arco volume is a lot louder which is cool sometimes, but I need more control, especially for mid song arco parts which I want underneath the music, not dominating over the rest. Of course being “mid song”, I can’t just reach over and turn the volume down on the pre.

Any ideas? I am thinking a volume pedal might be the go, but unsure about different brands and effect on tone.

How do others manage this?
Any advice appreciated, Thanks
 
#2
Rastus_01 said:
Hi, I have a Full circle pickup with a Platinum Pro pre which sounds great for both Pizz and Arco. The thing is, Arco volume is a lot louder which is cool sometimes, but I need more control, especially for mid song arco parts which I want underneath the music, not dominating over the rest. Of course being “mid song”, I can’t just reach over and turn the volume down on the pre.

Any ideas? I am thinking a volume pedal might be the go, but unsure about different brands and effect on tone.

How do others manage this?
Any advice appreciated, Thanks
Click to expand...

Volume pedals are not always as easy to use for subtle adjustments as you might think. Have you considered a stompbox preamp? The advantages there are a preset volume boost or cut and the option to set a different EQ for the change. The Boss Bass EQ is relatively inexpensive and actually works pretty well as a stand alone impedance matching preamp for piezo p.ups too.

Another option would be a two channel preamp like a D-Tar with an A/B box to switch channels.
 
#4
Just so that I'm sure I understand the suggestion, you're using the EQ pedal as a volume toggle - you could leave the EQ flat, adjust the level, then essentially have a two-position volume control.

Sounds reasonable enough to me - I have the same problem. I'm guessing more experience playing arco means you can play quieter without it sounding lousy.

Does a high action make arco sound louder but not make much difference for pizz? I'm thinking a lower action gets you arco volumes closer to your pizz volume.

-S-
 
#5
Hi,
Thanks for the responses; The EQ pedal is a great idea.

I believe the bow produces a larger (different) frequency range than pizz, so even if it is only a little louder, it is a much bigger sound. I want to be able to swap between the two, while keeping my sound underneath the vocals. so slightly taming the Arco volume (and maybe some eq) makes this possible.

Thanks all, solution found :)

Rastus
 
#6
Rastus_01 said:
Hi, I have a Full circle pickup with a Platinum Pro pre which sounds great for both Pizz and Arco. The thing is, Arco volume is a lot louder which is cool sometimes, but I need more control, especially for mid song arco parts which I want underneath the music, not dominating over the rest. Of course being “mid song”, I can’t just reach over and turn the volume down on the pre.

Any ideas? I am thinking a volume pedal might be the go, but unsure about different brands and effect on tone.

How do others manage this?
Any advice appreciated, Thanks
Click to expand...

I have been trying to improve my arco playing and can relate to your situation. I use a different pickup and sometimes no amplifier so I decided to try to use a less pressure so my arco volume matches my pizz volume. My thinking was to make an effort to be able to control my volume without relying on additional equipment, and would work for me even if I don't use an amp.

I am no expert with a bow but I don't think adding more electronics is the answer for me. I will just have to develope better control with the bow.
 
#7
I hear you Eddue about dynamics, yes this is something I do work hard on as my partner and I usually practice acoustically. Light finger picking on a guitar is damn quiet, and hard to get under, so this (cheat) will just help take the pressure of me when performing live (over a small pa) so I can focus more on the music.

For me, when plugged in to an amp or PA, Arco is definitely more prominent in the mix compared to pizz, more so than when playing acoustic. I guess the FC really likes those higher frequencies.

Cheers
 
#9
Rastus_01 said:
Hi, I have a Full circle pickup with a Platinum Pro pre which sounds great for both Pizz and Arco. The thing is, Arco volume is a lot louder which is cool sometimes, but I need more control, especially for mid song arco parts which I want underneath the music, not dominating over the rest. Of course being “mid song”, I can’t just reach over and turn the volume down on the pre. Thanks
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm such a klutz when it comes to negotating a volume pedal ( I tried it with a Morley) it was hazardous to my health . I like the idea of a switchable two channel EQ though. I think if I were going to to that route, I'd consider the EA Doubler which has that option.
 
#10
If you're handy, it seems that it would be fairly easy to build a simple passive post-preamp "Hi-Lo" stomp switch that would let you toggle between full volume and reduced volume. The amount of attenuation in the low position could either be fixed (two-resistor voltage divider), or settable by the user (potentiometer).

I would probably make one, but I love to tinker. Realistically, by the time you bought the enclosure, the switch, the jacks, and all the other miscellaneous parts, you might not save that much over a stock pedal.
 
#11
Your sound and your volume is in your hands. Relying on electronics to overcome playing issues robs you of the opportunity to attain finer control.

You can work this out without additional gear in the practice room with your stuff plugged in.
 
#12
Uncletoad said:
Your sound and your volume is in your hands. Relying on electronics to overcome playing issues robs you of the opportunity to attain finer control.

You can work this out without additional gear in the practice room with your stuff plugged in.
Click to expand...

Exploring your suggestion would certainly not be a waste of time. What you're saying is to practice using the technology you've chosen to use. But once you've stuck a pickup on the bass, run through a buffering preamp possibly with some EQ onboard, into an amplifier with EQ on board what's philosophically wrong with adding another EQ section? At some point using the technology becomes more than just a necessary evil and part of the essential technique.

If the OP is gonna do more than saw the occasional ballad ending I can see his wanting to experiment with different EQ and level for extended arco passages. Pizz and arco can behave very differently through piezo pickups. Personally if I were gonna be playing amplified arco more than 2% of the night I'd mic it and continue practicing acoustically. Mics just aren't practical for everyone or every situation though.
 
#13
Rastus_01 said:
I hear you Eddue about dynamics, yes this is something I do work hard on as my partner and I usually practice acoustically. Light finger picking on a guitar is damn quiet, and hard to get under, so this (cheat) will just help take the pressure of me when performing live (over a small pa) so I can focus more on the music.

For me, when plugged in to an amp or PA, Arco is definitely more prominent in the mix compared to pizz, more so than when playing acoustic. I guess the FC really likes those higher frequencies.

Cheers
Click to expand...

A volume pedal may be useful sometimes but in this situation I think it may do more harm than good when it comes to improving as a bassist. Just the bass and a bow is all you need. Practice without any electronics and develop a softer touch.

Use electronics to make your bass louder if needed but adding more electronics to be able to play softer, quieter shouldn't be necessary!
 
#15
jeff arddun said:
Exploring your suggestion would certainly not be a waste of time. What you're saying is to practice using the technology you've chosen to use. But once you've stuck a pickup on the bass, run through a buffering preamp possibly with some EQ onboard, into an amplifier with EQ on board what's philosophically wrong with adding another EQ section? At some point using the technology becomes more than just a necessary evil and part of the essential technique.
Click to expand...
My point was a touch finer than that and not so much about gear as intention or focus.

Pick your signal chain however you like it, then leave it alone and practice with it as it is to achieve what subtle things you seek.

The overarching notion is to avoid the easier softer method of buying something or adding something to your gear to solve playing issues rather than learning skills that don't require money or materials through practice and exploration.

Perhaps the OP needs a stronger pizz hand? Then the balance wouldn't be so far apart. None of us can tell from here.

Many players, including myself, have no trouble switching between arco and pizz without the need for gagets.
 
#16
Yeah sure, practice is ALWAYS imperative, but regardless of skill, there is a point where a softer touch/bow pressure loses fundamental...... especially when amplified. If your intention and focus is all about YOU and not about the music and musicians around you, you'll be fine anywhere, anytime. Otherwise, if you are striving to blend in the amplified ensemble, after a certain point of "finer touch" you're screwed. You've lost the fundamental of the pitch and the flow of your line.

Choosing the signal chain is very important, and that's why the OP asked for advise.......he's looking for some options to continue the quest for a transparent transition from pizz to bow. Amplified.

This is an ongoing issue.....I remember Bob Magnusson checking in here with the same question some years ago. He was having trouble switching between pizz and arco, and felt the need for a "gadget" to solve the problem.

Link Removed
 
#17
MR PC said:
Yeah sure, practice is ALWAYS imperative, but regardless of skill, there is a point where a softer touch/bow pressure loses fundamental...... especially when amplified. If your intention and focus is all about YOU and not about the music and musicians around you, you'll be fine anywhere, anytime. Otherwise, if you are striving to blend in the amplified ensemble, after a certain point of "finer touch" you're screwed. You've lost the fundamental of the pitch and the flow of your line.

Choosing the signal chain is very important, and that's why the OP asked for advise.......he's looking for some options to continue the quest for a transparent transition from pizz to bow. Amplified.

This is an ongoing issue.....I remember Bob Magnusson checking in here with the same question some years ago. He was having trouble switching between pizz and arco, and felt the need for a "gadget" to solve the problem.
Click to expand...

I don't have much to add to what you've said. I am curious though, did Bob Magnusson get told to "go practice with his amp" and all would be well? Did he come to see the real problem was his lack of technical accomplishment?
 
#18
Hi all,
Thanks for all the replies,

I absolutely agree with the recommendations to use a softer touch, It should come from the hands.

I do consider myself very much still a learner, and do take all advice on board.

When I have played with experienced, confident musicians, they play with good strong definition, even fingerpicking, and I have no problems. In fact they love the bow which is one of the reasons why I work so hard at it.

I mostly practice with my Girlfriend, a relatively new player with a very soft touch on the guitar which works well for her. When fingerpicking she is very soft and this is where I run into trouble, even when playing acoustically, I sometimes start to loose the fundamental of the note. Given that the Full Circle pickup does seem to amplify the bow a lot stronger, I was seeking a solution for this particular situation. To be honest, I believe I am just compensating for a weakness in the pickup.

Using a microphone is probably the ultimate answer

Cheers
 
#19
I had the same conundrum and solved it by using a Boss EQ pedal. The logic for me is that when I'm playing acoustically there is no volume difference - I know the volume/feel I need to play pizz and arco. When that changes because I've plugged into an amp, it makes more sense for me to get a gadget that cancels out that change rather than wasting time changing my technique to accommodate the amp.
 

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