How to feel the groove/beats?

[Rev J]

I've read all comments and some thoughts/questions popped up.

I've played in some bands without a drummer. How can I lock with the drummer if I don't have one???

I've googled and found that SO many DRUMMERS are asking the same question, "How to improve/develop a Powerful Groove".

What to do if you have a drummer that is still trying to learn/improve his/her GROOVE?
Here is my second question.
"Can "a powerful Groove" exist without a drummer?"

More of my questions.

Can I, an amateur bass player, GROOVE on my bass without knowing how to transpose it (a groove?) to other keys?
What's more,
Can I groove on my bass just by playing the ROOT note?



A very nice answer. 100% agree, but...
Does it mean that a good classical musician who plays EMOTIONALLY classical music is GROOVING?


A few web-site links (WHY? Just because).
Invalid Link Removed
Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Invalid Link Removed
3 Ways To Improve Your Groove
"Improve Your Groove"

In response to your query about grooving without a drummer:

I've heard a version of "Diamonds in the Soles of Her Shoes" by Paul Simon that was pretty much acapella vocals and bass that still grooved hard. I'll edit this and post a link later.

Another true bass history story:

Larry Graham started out playing guitar in an Organ Trio with his mom. He would play guitar while his mother would play bass on the organ pedals.

One night the organ pedals died and couldn't be fixed so he switched to bass. Shortly afterward they fired their drummer. To compensate for not having a drummer he started to slap the low strings to mimic a kick drum then started to pop the high strings to mimic the snare.

Eventually he caught the eye and ears of Sly Stone, and that is how slap bass became a part of the funk arsenal.

Here is one thing that has helped me in drummer less settings. Using dead notes. Sometimes dead notes in between regular sounding notes creates a "ghost drummer".

If you can read drum notation try looking at a drum kit part. Start simple play the kick drum rhythm as your bass line, when you are comfortable with that add the snare drum part as octaves. If you want to get really ambitious add some of the ride or high hat part as dead notes and if there are Tom Tom parts work those in as in between notes.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[Rev J]

If you get a chance sit and watch Victor Wootens "Groove Workshop" video. Granted it's about 5 hours but it is 5 hours well spent I almost feel like he is doing penance for all of the grooveless chops monsters he's created (nothing against Victor I love his playing). But he touches on playing without drummers and playing with bad drummers.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[Rev J]

Totally! I've heard it said that if you have a heartbeat you have a groove. I'm agreeing with you that groove is a multi faceted thing. I also think we are hitting on a lot of those facets here.

If you really want to go zen on the whole thing and make it simpler and more complex at the same time it pretty much breaks down to 2 elements:

Tension and release.

If you listen to all of the great bass grooves of the last 50 years there is a sense of tension and release to all of them. How you choose to create that is up to you.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[DanMax]

Hey, thanks for introducing me to "neuroplasticity".
I'm just hooked on it.drool
"Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the brain to compensate for injury and disease."
"Neuroplasticity sometimes may also contribute to impairment." WOW. Cool.

The following picture truly helps me to figure out about that illusive "GROOVE".
View attachment 830794

You seem to be making a point, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe you're saying that the average bass player is brain damaged? I think we compare pretty well to drummers. Ok, low bar, but still.

Try this famous study:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[Rev J]

Another cool thing about brain plasticity is that the cells in your spinal column are about the same as the ones in the brain. I read/heard this story that is inspiring to me partially since I work with quadripalegics:

There was a professional skateboarder named John Cardiel. A one point in his career he suffered a spinal chord injury and was told he wouldn't walk again. For a time he layed in bed staring at his toe willing it to move. At one point he thought he saw it move and said to himself "It's on!" He is up and walking now even skating and racing fixed gear bikes.

But back on subject:

Here is the Paul Simon track I promised:



Listen to how the bass carries the tune and groove by itself.

And talk about how simple note placement can make a groove:



The late great James Jamerson. Motown is pretty much like classical repertoire for electric bass.

C/S,

 

[DanMax]

"I'm not sure what it is" - and that's exactly my point.
I cannot figure out how that "smart" and "profoundly-medical" term ended up in our thread called,
"A beginner wants to know more about GROOVE".



WHAT????????????????... ...



P.S. I'm slow but maybe, somehow, I'll get that link between the brain's ability to compensate for injury and disease and GROOVE.

Neuroplasticity is the brain's capacity to change its structure, period, whether to compensate for injury, or for any other reason. It changes its structure in response to outside stimulus, such a need for a skill it wasn't built to acquire.

No neuroplasticity? Then a person who can't groove, can't even perceive one groove from another groove, would have no hope.

Bass12, I believe that was your point. And I'd agree with it, if it weren't for neuroplasticity. Sure, I agree, I've met people like that.

With neuroplasticity, then even the most groove-hopeless person could develop groove. No good at something + proper practice = a new brain structure, eventually.

Radical as this seems, it's been measured.

The article was about a study of London taxi drivers who started out with brains that weren't particularly good at remembering locations. After repeated "practice" in the form of driving taxis, their brains had to change, and did. And the change could actually be measured with brain scans. In this case, it was the hippocampus area that grew. They have before/after scans. It's been proven.

Re a person's ability to groove, that's like any other skill. If someone can't groove, it's because they haven't developed one or more of the skills required. If someone has no sense of groove at all, then likely their brains would have to change. Difficult as it is, that can be brought about.

I'd say the #1 main blocker to groove is being unable to perceive one groove from another. Some people can barely perceive rhythm, for example. Play a drum pad for 5 minutes, 4 times a day for x many months, and the brain would develop its "rhythm" area. Once acquired, move on to the next missing part, say the ability to perceive stress on a beat. And that can be addressed.

Or, take a macro approach and listen to music with different grooves, to try to gain all the skills at once. That's like saying "here's your bass guitar, learn all the skills at once without focusing on any specific one." I guess that works for some people, but I wouldn't count on it.

I'm still not sure why you were posting pictures of brain damaged people. Did you find some article about neuroplasticity and brain damage, and jump to the conclusion that brains couldn't change unless they'd been damaged first? All brains are change. Sometimes you have to guide them.

But you tell me: why do you think practicing works? Or does it?

 

[DanMax]

OP,

Please don't think I'm lumping you in with the people who'd have to build up their brains for two years before they could begin. My point is that even if thing were a lot worse than they are, you'd still be able to come through.

Looking back at what you said in your original post: is it possible that you've made more progress than you think?

As you progress, your skills get better--but so does your ear. As a result, even though you're improving a lot, it seems like you're running in place, because you keep noticing "new" things you're doing wrong. Trust me, those aren't new things, it's just that you weren't able to notice them before. Give yourself credit.

Do you have any recordings of yourself a year ago? Do a before and after comparison.

And keep practicing. Use your improved ear to practice better.

 

[buldog5151bass]

One trick I still use when the sound on stage is not good. I stand to the ride cymbal side of the drummer, and keep my foot against the bass drum peg. You literally can feel the groove. Try it - it may help.

 

[Rev J]

Neuroplasticity is the brain's capacity to change its structure, period, whether to compensate for injury, or for any other reason. It changes its structure in response to outside stimulus, such a need for a skill it wasn't built to acquire.

No neuroplasticity? Then a person who can't groove, can't even perceive one groove from another groove, would have no hope.

Bass12, I believe that was your point. And I'd agree with it, if it weren't for neuroplasticity. Sure, I agree, I've met people like that.

With neuroplasticity, then even the most groove-hopeless person could develop groove. No good at something + proper practice = a new brain structure, eventually.

Radical as this seems, it's been measured.

The article was about a study of London taxi drivers who started out with brains that weren't particularly good at remembering locations. After repeated "practice" in the form of driving taxis, their brains had to change, and did. And the change could actually be measured with brain scans. In this case, it was the hippocampus area that grew. They have before/after scans. It's been proven.

Re a person's ability to groove, that's like any other skill. If someone can't groove, it's because they haven't developed one or more of the skills required. If someone has no sense of groove at all, then likely their brains would have to change. Difficult as it is, that can be brought about.

I'd say the #1 main blocker to groove is being unable to perceive one groove from another. Some people can barely perceive rhythm, for example. Play a drum pad for 5 minutes, 4 times a day for x many months, and the brain would develop its "rhythm" area. Once acquired, move on to the next missing part, say the ability to perceive stress on a beat. And that can be addressed.

Or, take a macro approach and listen to music with different grooves, to try to gain all the skills at once. That's like saying "here's your bass guitar, learn all the skills at once without focusing on any specific one." I guess that works for some people, but I wouldn't count on it.

I'm still not sure why you were posting pictures of brain damaged people. Did you find some article about neuroplasticity and brain damage, and jump to the conclusion that brains couldn't change unless they'd been damaged first? All brains are change. Sometimes you have to guide them.

But you tell me: why do you think practicing works? Or does it?

UC Berkeley also did a study where the took Buddhist Monks and put them in the MRI machine and took scans as they chanted various mantras and found that different mantras excited activity in different parts of the brain. I don't know why I just thought of that but I did.

But they've studied the effects of music on the brain for years. I remember the big thing 20 or so years ago was "The Mozart Effect" where they concluded that listening to Mozart with the multi part counterpoint stimulated more parts of your brain. They've also found that more harmonically complex music stimulates other parts and more rhythmically complex music stimulates other parts. Imagine what it would do to a human brain if someone did an Afro Cuban version of "Giant Steps" with three voice counterpoint.

But about groove. I read about this concept in Mickey Harts book "Drumming at the Edge of Magic" called The Law of Entrainment. Essentially all of our rhythms lock in to each other. For example of you sleep next to someone your breathing patterns will fall into place and their heartbeats will sync up. It also happens with music. When you are at rest your heart rate is at about 60 beats per minute. When excited that can jump up to 120 to 130 beats per minute. That is why for example dance music is generally in the 120 to 130 BPM range. SO your body know what is happening when you don't. So that shows that groove is natural.

I just want to share about 4 rehearsal tracks from one of m old bands. There is a lot of improvisation on these tracks and they shift genre/groove almost at will:









A lot of how the grooves change is based on similarities between grooves. For example going from Reggae to Calypso. Also if you clap a double time clave rhythm against the opening bass line to "Chameleon" you see how closely it fits. Sometimes I'm initiating the groove changes, and sometimes it is the vibraphonist.

A big part of my practice time lately has been learning Afro Cuban/ Afro Carribean (I refuse to say Latin in regards to music for reasons that I won't go into here) becase to me that is the mother of most of the rhythms/groove.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[Rev J]

Hey man ease up a little. Haven't you ever been in one of those jams that went into a dozen different places before coming back to the original song? Or had a conversation that changed subject a few times before coming back to the original topic?

Hell I've side tracked through Buddhism and Metaphysics in this thread. It's kind of following it's own groove and flow.

Kind of like playing music.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[DanMax]

Here is my concise answer to your very interesting comment!

IT'S NOT THE RIGHT PLACE - TALKBASS - TO TALK ABOUT NEUROPLASTICITY, especially in the thread like,
"A beginner wants to know more about GROOVE".

What's more, I think even talking about all those "just before or after the true beat. It creates a groovy sound and feel. However, this technique is extremely hard to master."

I hope you were able to understand my point.

Let me make sure I do understand. You're saying:

1) A beginner wants to talk about groove.
2) I brought up something to do with the brain.
3) Why would I do that, when the brain has nothing to do with music? Bass players want to play, not think about how best to use their brains!

Is that about it? The brain has plenty to do with music. Music is mostly brain. A brain related comment might be appropriate, depending, and I feel it was in this case.

There were comments by various people--all of whom are entitled to their opinions--that there's no hope for people who just don't get groove.

My point on neuroplasticity addressed that directly. If the brain can change in response to training, then even someone who's lived 80 years without getting the groove could start getting it if he had the right kind of training. So I disagree with those telling the submitter he likely has no hope.

As for why you're posting pictures of brain damaged people, I guess I don't need to know everyone's motivations for everything. You can keep that one to yourself.

OP, keep going until you get that groove. Use your ears, your hands, your brain and whatever it takes.

 

[DanMax]

UC Berkeley also did a study where the took Buddhist Monks and put them in the MRI machine and took scans as they chanted various mantras and found that different mantras excited activity in different parts of the brain. I don't know why I just thought of that but I did.

But they've studied the effects of music on the brain for years. I remember the big thing 20 or so years ago was "The Mozart Effect" where they concluded that listening to Mozart with the multi part counterpoint stimulated more parts of your brain. They've also found that more harmonically complex music stimulates other parts and more rhythmically complex music stimulates other parts. Imagine what it would do to a human brain if someone did an Afro Cuban version of "Giant Steps" with three voice counterpoint.

But about groove. I read about this concept in Mickey Harts book "Drumming at the Edge of Magic" called The Law of Entrainment. Essentially all of our rhythms lock in to each other. For example of you sleep next to someone your breathing patterns will fall into place and their heartbeats will sync up. It also happens with music. When you are at rest your heart rate is at about 60 beats per minute. When excited that can jump up to 120 to 130 beats per minute. That is why for example dance music is generally in the 120 to 130 BPM range. SO your body know what is happening when you don't. So that shows that groove is natural.

I just want to share about 4 rehearsal tracks from one of m old bands. There is a lot of improvisation on these tracks and they shift genre/groove almost at will:









A lot of how the grooves change is based on similarities between grooves. For example going from Reggae to Calypso. Also if you clap a double time clave rhythm against the opening bass line to "Chameleon" you see how closely it fits. Sometimes I'm initiating the groove changes, and sometimes it is the vibraphonist.

A big part of my practice time lately has been learning Afro Cuban/ Afro Carribean (I refuse to say Latin in regards to music for reasons that I won't go into here) becase to me that is the mother of most of the rhythms/groove.

C/S,
Rev J

I like the "Nothing but Flowers." Will listen to the rest in a bit. Thanks!

 

[Rev J]

I like the "Nothing but Flowers." Will listen to the rest in a bit. Thanks!

Thanks! I was the one who picked material for that band. I guess that made me de facto "Leader".

C/S,
Rev J

 

[DanMax]

I know that we have a lot of excellent scientists, programmers, doctors, and other highly educated people as our TB members, and IT'S GREAT! drool


Let's look at the description of this particular forum.
How Do I Play This Thing? Instructional Discussion on Bass Guitar. Bass Teachers, Bass Methods...

I'd like to find at least ONE, just ONE TB member, or ANY bass player who could say,
"Hey, I took a course on neuroplasticity. After that, I grabbed a bass guitar and started GROOVING."
I agree with you that we can be EASILY distracted but enough is enough. Let's get back to our SPECIFIC discourse.
P.S. Dear Rev J,
The rest of my comment is NOT ADDRESSED to you but to all TB members. NOTHING PERSONAL!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEVERAL times, some of our TB members, and possible good bass players, informed me about their "unhappiness" with my provided educational material.
What's more. The same TB members, and possible good bass players, accepted my postings with educational material as some kind of PERSONAL(?!!!) issue.
Anyway.
NOBODY has the last word in MUSIC!
Sorry, I really got distracted.

Here is an interesting read,
Metronome Study Guide: A Comprehensive Guide to Using a Metronome for Developing Inner Pulse, Rhythmic Accuracy and Musicality.
RhythmSource-Metronome Study Guide v2 - Documents

I believe that it's better to start with simple bass-lines in order to learn the foundation of GROOVE.
Here is a simple but GROOVY bass-line from "Life in the fast lane".
(It could be a little bit tricky that open E for some beginners.)
For those (the beginners not SOLIDLY PRO bass players) who are still interested about GROOVE, I'd highly recommend to figure out the articulation (the notes' lengths, dynamics, etc...) of those simple (Root/Octave) notes of the main bass riff.
It's ALWAYS a good idea to learn about a very important to GROOVE element/skill - subdivision.
View attachment 831398

Rhythm Section Workshop for Jazz Directors

"Subdivision is an important skill to develop. From an early age, musicians are told that they must subdivide to play accurate rhythms. While it can be difficult at first to hear the divisions of the beats in your mind's ear, it will become easier with practice and dedication. One of the best ways to develop a clear sense of subdivision is to actually play the subdivision. This means playing every sixteenth note in every eighth, quarter, half and whole note as a repeated pitch for the length of each note value. In a compound meter (6/8 for example), play three eighths or six sixteenth notes per dotted quarter. After practicing the music by playing the subdivision, play the music as written and try to hear the subdivision in your mind's ear. Another great way to practice subdivision is to shake the subdivision on a shaker while you sing the actual rhythms."
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]




Here is another bass-line, maybe more notes but a similar offbeat-accentuated and GROOVY bass-line (check those subtleties of articulation, dynamics, etc...).




P.S. I really need to end my posting -it's way too long and I know quite a few TB member will get mad at me for it.

W,

I agree with everything you've said, with the exception to your calling my postings off topic.

"Can I learn groove when I wasn't born knowing it?" "Yes, because of neuroplasticity."

It's so obviously (IMHO) on topic that it took me a while to figure out what you were objecting to, or even that you were objecting.

You have one opinion, I have another, and so it stands between the two of us.

Thanks for the links, I'll check those out.

 

[DanMax]

Cool. No need to argue about it. When a teenager wants to learn how to drive a car, you start teaching that stdent about the physics of an internal combustion engine. I have no problem with it.

I don't imagine that anyone reading my posts would think that that's what I was doing. I'll let my posts speak for themselves, and not worry too much one way or another.

OP, I'll bet you're a winner, and you weren't letting those doomsayers get you down, anyway. No need to convince you that your brain will come through for you, you already know!

Go get grooving, and have a good time!

 

[two fingers]

you have my sympathy. "just feel it" is both 100% true and 100% useless advice.
As Malcolm said, if I could feel it I wouldn't be asking.

"just feel it" actually means:

• subconsciously recognize the musical context
• instinctively apply experience, habit and muscle memory to play phrases that will fit
• instinctively use your ear to adjust when things sound bad to you
• pretend its magickal fairy woo when someone asks

quick! think of a word that rhymes with "peach"
Easy, no?

When the band is jamming and you can't ad lib what to play, it's a vocabulary issue.
Only Playing for 2 years, You don't yet know enough grooves that "rhyme" with the music.

As I said in that other thread you peeked at:
learning by example is powerful for building your feel (vocabulary) for groove.
So find grooves you like and learn.

and by "learn" I mean learning:

• how to play it
• the notes by name
• the supported chord progression
• the key, intervals and scales involved
• how to transpose it to other keys

this transforms the piece form a "tune you know"
into a tool in your musical tool bag

In particular understanding the functional chord progression
(that I-IV-V roman numeral stuff)
gives you a context that you can recognize in other songs / jams
and thus you know what kind of chord progression the groove "rhymes" with.

Great answer!

I liken it to playing baseball as a kid. My father was the coach. He used to kill is with "fundamentals". What that meant was practicing the ever loving crappie out of the basics so that when game time came we could apply and adjust those basics for real world scenarios.

You've been playing two years OP. Relax. Keep doing what you're doing. Practice the fundamentals (scales and finger work) and then just jam to your favorite music in the manner described in the post I quoted. Really learn what is going on in the chord structure, not just copping the bass line.

Maybe see if you can find a used Fender B-DEC or some other amp our software made to jam along to. Then experiment. If you get to a groove you can't jam along to, pick it apart and find out why. See if you can use your ears and a chord chart to pick out the chord progression. Then you'll be armed with information.

Do all that at home. THEN when jam time comes on stage or at the rehearsal spot, you'll be ready for that whole "just feel it" thing.

But don't stress out. I would be both surprised and jealous if you were really good at it in only two years. It takes experience along with the fundamentals to be able to think on your feet musically.

Enjoy the ride!

 

[Rev J]

I recently had an interesting experience during a vacation. I went to see my folks and one night my dad and I went to an open mic night. Just basic 3 chord songs. My 13 year old cousin was there partially because I borrowed his bass. In between things I got to talk to him a little about bass and told him if he wanted to get attention at a party with his axe there were 2 simple things he could play. We were in a crowded bar/restaurant and I played the bassline from "Under Pressure" by Queen and the place got quiet. Then I played the sliding 10th line from "Walk on the Wildside" and got even more attention. Both are really simple lines.

He surprised me at the same time by whistling back what I played. I really wish I could do that.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[DanMax]

I recently had an interesting experience during a vacation. I went to see my folks and one night my dad and I went to an open mic night. Just basic 3 chord songs. My 13 year old cousin was there partially because I borrowed his bass. In between things I got to talk to him a little about bass and told him if he wanted to get attention at a party with his axe there were 2 simple things he could play. We were in a crowded bar/restaurant and I played the bassline from "Under Pressure" by Queen and the place got quiet. Then I played the sliding 10th line from "Walk on the Wildside" and got even more attention. Both are really simple lines.

He surprised me at the same time by whistling back what I played. I really wish I could do that.

C/S,
Rev J

Rev, just to be asking: you're wishing it, or practicing it?

 

[Lownote38]

I think you mistake my meaning
by "more than one thing " I did not mean "there are many grooves"

I meant a groove has many parts
the parts can be put into words
they can be taught, practiced, and improved

combining the parts can be learned by example

groove is not unteachable magic

I disagree. I agree that it is not magic, but it cannot be put into words in my opinion. Groove cannot be taught unless you listen to music with a groove and teach yourself how to feel it. I wouldn't have paid anyone to teach me "groove". Total waste of money.

 

[mambo4]

Groove cannot be taught unless you listen to music with a groove and teach yourself how to feel it.

Yes, this is what I called "learning by example".
It does not however have to be done by oneself
(though that may be best, as things you figure out on your own stay with you best)

For those who think feel/groove is something you "have or don't":
How does someone just starting out determine if they "have it"?
How can the OP tell if his trouble "just feeling it" is because he "doesn't have it"?
How can tell if it's NOT perhaps because he hasn't yet logged the hours building his musical rudiments and a robust muscial vocabulary?