How to setup a fretless bass?

[Matthijs]

Well you don't have to take my word for it - try it yourself. Pull one of your saddles back 1/8" say. Then move another forward 1/8". Retune and go play.

I promise you, you will still be able to play that bass. If you notice any difference at all, 4 or 8 bars into the tune you're going to sound just fine like you do right now. You'll listen and adjust just like you always did.

This is part of why we play the FL after all is because of the control it grants us over our intonation. That includes the limitations of our instruments as well.

LS

Imho and ime that would make for a sloppy bass. Your fretless is not that limited an instrument. Control over intonation includes getting it right when you want to. Try moving you finger 1/8 th while you have fretted a note at the octave and tell me that does not matter.

 

[bassmeknik]

The reason I discourage measuring:
- A suitable, for you, action can vary on different basses. It's ok for getting you in the ballpark, but you really have to do the final adjustments by feel.
- your desired setup will change. After a while you may want to raise the action for tone reasons. Your necks are likely to move around a bit with a change in temp, etc. You need to have a good feel for what you like in those cases.
- a bass is NOT a precision device, especially an FL - sorry, but it isn't. As Michael Tobias says, a thousandth of an inch here and there isn't going to make a difference. So that extra 1/32" plus or minus that you try to get with the feeler gauge is time better spent learning the correct feeling and practicing instead. The TLAR (That Looks About Right) method is sufficient and really helps keep the blood pressure down where it's supposed to be for an enjoyable musical experience.

As for intonation, how exactly does one "intonate" a fretless? Beyond only a very gross indication, how do you know you've gotten it spot on?

LS

Very sensible. I also do many things by feel or other subjective method because I am experienced enough to develop a "feel" for those tasks. For reference purposes I also measure after making a change so as to "document" where I am at with a particular parameter/adjustment. I do not need to measure as a starting point because my hands tell me if it is adjusted to my liking, But I am a first born who loves numbers and who can remember and express numbers more easily than with words. (I can describe with words also but I find it easier to use numbers.)

So I am in agreement that I don't need a scale to do set-up. However, I want one any way just for my own data base and I keep track of those numbers related to my own personal basses/instruments.

 

[unclejane]

Imho and ime that would make for a sloppy bass. Your fretless is not that limited an instrument. Control over intonation includes getting it right when you want to. Try moving you finger 1/8 th while you have fretted a note at the octave and tell me that does not matter.

Exactly - the precision is with the _player_, not the _instrument_.

Trust me: try moving a couple of saddles on your bridge and see what happens. You'll likely be surprised...

LS

 

[bassmeknik]

Exactly - the precision is with the _player_, not the _instrument_.

Trust me: try moving a couple of saddles on your bridge and see what happens. You'll likely be surprised...

LS

My first bass was a 1974 Fender Precision frettless. I have done my own set-up on all my guitars and basses for about thirty years now and intonation adjustment is just as necessary on a frettless bass as it is on a fretted one. It is very important that finger placement be consistent. Intonation adjustments put you closer. Yes where you fret the twelfth fret is important just do it where no other noises will distract you and do it repeatedly until you are content that it is as close as you can get. Test by playing in front of a tuner a piece that you are reasonably good at and see if you are playing in tune. It is hard to do this unless you are very comfortable with the bass to start with, but years of playing it will teach you tricks that will make it easier. One such trick for me has been to document by measurement each time I changed an adjustment.

 

[AudioDwebe]

While I appreciate the suggestion to just use my fingers and ears to adjust the bass to my liking, I am a relative noobie who needs a set of measurements as a starting point, at least for now. And maybe always.

In the video I watched, the tech recommended a fret to string distance of .022" on the first fret, with a relief of .015" at the 7th fret while fretting the 1st fret (with a capo) and pressing down on the fret where the neck meets the body.

I did a real quick look at a bass recently set up by a tech, and I think the numbers might be close. I just purchased a set of feeler gauges but didn't break them out of the package yet (just got it yesterday and I had my 6 year old...meaning I really didn't have much time last night) but I will today, as I'm 100% certain I can't eyeball neither .015 nor .022 of an inch!

I've got an older Carvin fretless that I wanted to take in to get a tune-up, but at $65 a pop, figured it would be in my interest to learn how to do the basic stuff myself. And besides, I think it'll be sort of fun.

But for the fretless, if the string height is supposed to be .022" where the first fret would be, it just seems like that'd be an awfully low nut. And, you know, it might already be about that low on the Carvin but since I never knew any of this until just a few days ago...let's just say I am looking forward to spending some time with the bass this evening with the gauges.

Intoning the strings seems damn near impossible from my perspective. I might be able to get it into the ball park, but my guess is it'll get no better.

I only wish I were as good as some of you out there! I've only got about 9950 hours of practice to go!

Cheers.

Mamoru

 

[bassmeknik]

But for the fretless, if the string height is supposed to be .022" where the first fret would be, it just seems like that'd be an awfully low nut. And, you know, it might already be about that low on the Carvin but since I never knew any of this until just a few days ago...let's just say I am looking forward to spending some time with the bass this evening with the gauges.

Intoning the strings seems damn near impossible from my perspective. I might be able to get it into the ball park, but my guess is it'll get no better.

If I can remember correctly I am set to about .010" to .012" measured right next to the nut for the E string and that makes for very low action. A pro luthier once criticized the adjustment but I like playing the bass that way and with a light touch I get by with minimal string deflection and more accurate intonation.

Right now intonation seems like climbing a vertical cliff with no gear. Your bass is probably set close at the factory so if it sounds the same plucking the harmonic as the "fretted" note produced by pushing down as close to where you see the 12th fret's proper location to be then no adjustment is required. Try rolling your finger on the fretboard while looking at your tuner and you will see why technique and consistency is very important here. As you develop an ear for the fretless you will begin to develop your ability to intonate properly and if your bass needs an intonation adjustment you will likely have developed the sensitivity to detect the need for it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

On a fretless you should also be able to hit the right note at once. A fretless is just as much a precision instrument as any other bass. Playing fretless is no excuse for playing out of tune.

Sure nobody will notice if the octave is at the spot where the twelfth would be. That's not what the intonation is for. You intonate a fretless to make sure you play in tune when you jump from a C on the D string to the high G on the G string. And you will notice small deviation when you are playing halfway the neck. I'm not sure how big your 1/16 inch exactly is, but a milimeter is enough to be seriously out of tune.

This statement really caught my attention.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Wherever the intonation is set on a fretless, the notes don't move afterwards. Think about it.

 

[Matthijs]

Wherever the intonation is set on a fretless, the notes don't move afterwards. Think about it.

I can't see how this is an argument for not having a consistent intonation setup over all strings. I don't care wether the octave is at the exact middle of the mensur, I do care for consistency over the strings. I've been playing exclusively fretless for over 26 years and had the experience of playing badly intonated instruments. Sure, you can get adjusted, but it's not a comfortable situation to be in when you want to play large interval jumps in a live improvisation. And it is not a sensible thing to suggest to a newbie that intonation does not matter and fretless is all about adjusting by ear.

 

[Matthew_84]

You will have to adjust by ear regardless, but say there's two students: Student A, who has a bass that has consistent intonation on all strings, and Student B who has each string's octave is in a slightly different location on each string.

Whenever Student A does the D octave from E string 10th position to D string 12th position, and the G octave from the A String 10th position to the G string 12th position, they have to move their fingers the same distance apart each time. Sure there will be adjustments needed, but in theory they should place there fingers in the same spot, and everything is consistent. Consider these changes for every instance of string-crossing everywhere on the neck.

Now Student B tries to do the same movements, say the E string is intonated right, the A string's a little flat, the D string's a little sharp, and the G string is 10 cents sharper than the D string. When Student B does the D octave, they will have to move their fingers a slightly larger gap than student A, but then when they had to do the G string gap, not only when they move down to the A string will they have to move back to be in tune, but when they play the G string, they will have to play a larger gap then what they just did.

Give these two students these two basses for a year. Who's going to be a more accurate player of at the end of it?

You guys are making it seem like it takes five hours to intonate a bass, and it has to be done every other day or something. I set up my bass every couple of weeks and it takes ten minutes, especially since I'm so consistent with it... Oh, there's that word again.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I can't see how this is an argument for not having a consistent intonation setup over all strings. I don't care wether the octave is at the exact middle of the mensur, I do care for consistency over the strings. I've been playing exclusively fretless for over 26 years and had the experience of playing badly intonated instruments. Sure, you can get adjusted, but it's not a comfortable situation to be in when you want to play large interval jumps in a live improvisation. And it is not a sensible thing to suggest to a newbie that intonation does not matter and fretless is all about adjusting by ear.

I did not suggest that intonation doesn't matter. I did suggest that anyone reading my post actually think about what I actually wrote.


I've been playing fretless for over thirty years. I have never needed a credit card intonation setup. One milliter difference has not made me horribly out of tune. I get compliments on my intonation on a regular basis during live performance.

My point was actually pretty simple. WHEREVER your intonation ends up being set on a particular strings, the in tune position thereafter where you should fret a note doesn't change (barring the string itself going out of tune) . There will be consistenty.





Do you disagree?

 

[Brad Johnson]

You will have to adjust by ear regardless, but say there's two students: Student A, who has a bass that has consistent intonation on all strings, and Student B who has each string's octave is in a slightly different location on each string.

Whenever Student A does the D octave from E string 10th position to D string 12th position, and the G octave from the A String 10th position to the G string 12th position, they have to move their fingers the same distance apart each time. Sure there will be adjustments needed, but in theory they should place there fingers in the same spot, and everything is consistent. Consider these changes for every instance of string-crossing everywhere on the neck.

Now Student B tries to do the same movements, say the E string is intonated right, the A string's a little flat, the D string's a little sharp, and the G string is 10 cents sharper than the D string. When Student B does the D octave, they will have to move their fingers a slightly larger gap than student A, but then when they had to do the G string gap, not only when they move down to the A string will they have to move back to be in tune, but when they play the G string, they will have to play a larger gap then what they just did.

Give these two students these two basses for a year. Who's going to be a more accurate player of at the end of it?

You guys are making it seem like it takes five hours to intonate a bass, and it has to be done every other day or something. I set up my bass every couple of weeks and it takes ten minutes, especially since I'm so consistent with it... Oh, there's that word again.

You seem to be leaping to conclusions. No offense.

Who is advocating having inconsistent basic intonation? Who's saying it takes a long time to complete an overly anal intonation? I think we're saying it's simply not neccesary for us to play in tune. You need to remember and adjust no matter where the intonation is set.

As far as your two players after a year question, the correct answer is "It depends". Do you disagree?


If either is still unfamiliar with their bass, no matter how it's set up, after a year...


Unlike you, I haven't checked the intonation on any of my fretless since I originally got them. None has shifted drastically. I have them in different scale lengths. One even has a bar type one piece piezo saddle. If you checked the intonation (it would be a real fluke if it were credit card edge spot on) would you then find it unplayable?

 

[1958Bassman]

But you don't play an FL with a CC - you use your fat fingers . How do you know you're spot on at the octave? Especially with an unlined?

And even if it's off slightly, what do you do as a player?

I'll bet you a million dollars that you can't tell and you still intonate in your playing fine regardless. Playing an FL isn't about your fingers happening to just land in the right place - it's about adjusting your intonation while listening.... And your hands will not be able to discern that couple hundredths of an inch. It's off by more than that by a long shot at other places on the fingerboard.

So, like I said, only if it's WAY off, which is rarely the case with the default positions of the saddles on most basses, will you really be able to tell...


LS

It's easy to have "Way off" when the previous owner had absolutely no idea how to set up the instrument. I bought a fretless a little over a year ago and I kind of think someone messed with it after I originally played it because I took it home and couldn't find anything good on it. I checked the intonation, using the nail on my left index finger and found that it was all over the map. I also can't stand bad intonation, so it was incredibly annoying. Once I got it to the point of being acceptable to me, I didn't need to think about much of anything, other than playing the right notes. Last night, I decided that I wanted more mwah, so I lowered the action and, while it wasn't far off, I still want it to be there. Having to compensate on the fly is a PITA. If I want to use vibrato or slide into notes, I prefer to be the reason, not the instrument. Call me a control freak, but it's just another detail I don't want left to chance.

 

[thiocyclist]

I used to have two fretlesses, one was set with intonation consistently close to the octave on each string, the other was a bit sloppier in its approach... that sloppier one sounded fine most of the time but when I had to do double stops, full chords and arpeggios I noticed things going flat or sharp that I didn't think were supposed to. I check and sure enough it was the intonation. Fixed it and things fell into place for me instantly.

It matters.

 

[1958Bassman]

While I appreciate the suggestion to just use my fingers and ears to adjust the bass to my liking, I am a relative noobie who needs a set of measurements as a starting point, at least for now. And maybe always.

In the video I watched, the tech recommended a fret to string distance of .022" on the first fret, with a relief of .015" at the 7th fret while fretting the 1st fret (with a capo) and pressing down on the fret where the neck meets the body.

I did a real quick look at a bass recently set up by a tech, and I think the numbers might be close. I just purchased a set of feeler gauges but didn't break them out of the package yet (just got it yesterday and I had my 6 year old...meaning I really didn't have much time last night) but I will today, as I'm 100% certain I can't eyeball neither .015 nor .022 of an inch!

I've got an older Carvin fretless that I wanted to take in to get a tune-up, but at $65 a pop, figured it would be in my interest to learn how to do the basic stuff myself. And besides, I think it'll be sort of fun.

But for the fretless, if the string height is supposed to be .022" where the first fret would be, it just seems like that'd be an awfully low nut. And, you know, it might already be about that low on the Carvin but since I never knew any of this until just a few days ago...let's just say I am looking forward to spending some time with the bass this evening with the gauges.

Intoning the strings seems damn near impossible from my perspective. I might be able to get it into the ball park, but my guess is it'll get no better.

I only wish I were as good as some of you out there! I've only got about 9950 hours of practice to go!

Cheers.

Mamoru

Screw measuring. If it's comfortable to play, your nut slots aren't so high or low that the low fret positions are sharp or flat, respectively, while the upper fret positions are correct and the upper fret positions aren't so high that the notes are sharp or the strings buzz, you should be fine. If you like the strings to have more arc to them to make plucking them easier, fine. If you like it flatter, also fine.

Having no frets, you won't hear the metallic buzz from frets but you may be distracted by a bit of buzz when playing quietly. That won't come through the amp, though. There's less to a fretless setup than fretted, so you should probably try messing with it before deciding to take it in. Besides, if you change to a different kind of strings and the setup needs to be changed, it won't be hard to change it back in the event that the new strings don't work for you.

Finding the intonation at the 12th fret is only part of the process- if you really want to nail it, check it at the 7th and 19th fret positions, too. If you have a fretted bass, I suggest making sure these are correct when setting the intonation- it's a good way to find out if the string height is correct- if the 12th and 19th are correct but the 7th is sharp or flat, the nut slots are too high or low. If the 7th and 12th are correct but the 19th is sharp or flat, the bridge height is high or low, respectively.

It's a good skill to have- I don't want to keep people from using local shops when something is necessary but players shouldn't be afraid of doing minor setup changes. However, if someone wants to attempt this, they need to understand what is needed and what the changes will do to playability or the sound.

 

[Matthijs]

I did not suggest that intonation doesn't matter. I did suggest that anyone reading my post actually think about what I actually wrote.


I've been playing fretless for over thirty years. I have never needed a credit card intonation setup. One milliter difference has not made me horribly out of tune. I get compliments on my intonation on a regular basis during live performance.

My point was actually pretty simple. WHEREVER your intonation ends up being set on a particular strings, the in tune position thereafter where you should fret a note doesn't change (barring the string itself going out of tune) . There will be consistenty.

Do you disagree?

Well... The point of your posts did seem to be supporting the posts I was reacting to that state intonation does not matter in your setup. And on the one milimeter: that was for being one milimeter off in fretting a note. Not in intonation setup. I'm pretty sure that is what I wrote. I never did the credit card thing myself, imho that's a bit over the top.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well... The point of your posts did seem to be supporting the posts I was reacting to that state intonation does not matter in your setup. And on the one milimeter: that was for being one milimeter off in fretting a note. Not in intonation setup. I'm pretty sure that is what I wrote. I never did the credit card thing myself, imho that's a bit over the top.

I was referring to exactly what I quoted by you... and if you contend that pitch will be seriously out of tune with a difference of fretting one way or another by a single millimeter, how could the credit card thing be over the top?

I'm contending that there's a wider range of intonation setting that works for fretless than you are. And if you'd address my question about the single bar piezo setup that I mentioned I'd appreciate it. It sounds like you'd find one of those unplayable. Do You?

What's your opinion on my two students answer?

 

[buffalobillh]

Interesting discussion. I'm not sure I'm in agreement with all of it, but it is thought provoking nonetheless.

I want my instrument to be consistent with itself. A quality instrument that is consistently in tune with itself in all respects, has consistent feel and action across the strings, and sounds even from top to bottom. The rest is up to me. If the bass gets out of tune/sync/etc. with itself, the end result is still up to me. I will adjust accordingly, but I want my instrument to be consistent so I can focus on the message I'm communicating. I may subconsciously (or consciously) adjust, but that's not the point. I don't want to worry about inconsistencies in my instrument as I play. If I have to be limited, I only want to be limited by my imagination, nothing else. Great players can sound great on crappy instruments - they have the chops... but how many of them play crappy instruments? Great players use good equipment that is set up properly, and that makes their job much easier.

I'm a tuba player also. I can plaly a $1200 POS and sound like myself, or I can play a $10K and sound like myself. I may sound better on the $10K, maybe not, but playing the better instrument will (and does) make all the difference in letting me focus on the message I'm communicating to my audience. Instead of pulling slides all the time to stay in tune (my bridge is out 1/8") and overcoming problem notes, I can devote that time and energy into playing. Many wind instrument players look for horns that can play in tune for those very reasons. Others find the instrument with "the sound" and figure out a way to play in tune. I've done both, and the latter may require a lot of extra effort. My current basses are set up well, and I have a tuba that has excellent intonation. Sure makes it easier and more enjoyable. Well, at least for me it does. YMMV.

 

[Matthew_84]

Interesting discussion. I'm not sure I'm in agreement with all of it, but it is thought provoking nonetheless.

I want my instrument to be consistent with itself. A quality instrument that is consistently in tune with itself in all respects, has consistent feel and action across the strings, and sounds even from top to bottom. The rest is up to me. If the bass gets out of tune/sync/etc. with itself, the end result is still up to me. I will adjust accordingly, but I want my instrument to be consistent so I can focus on the message I'm communicating. I may subconsciously (or consciously) adjust, but that's not the point. I don't want to worry about inconsistencies in my instrument as I play. If I have to be limited, I only want to be limited by my imagination, nothing else. Great players can sound great on crappy instruments - they have the chops... but how many of them play crappy instruments? Great players use good equipment that is set up properly, and that makes their job much easier.

I'm a tuba player also. I can plaly a $1200 POS and sound like myself, or I can play a $10K and sound like myself. I may sound better on the $10K, maybe not, but playing the better instrument will (and does) make all the difference in letting me focus on the message I'm communicating to my audience. Instead of pulling slides all the time to stay in tune (my bridge is out 1/8") and overcoming problem notes, I can devote that time and energy into playing. Many wind instrument players look for horns that can play in tune for those very reasons. Others find the instrument with "the sound" and figure out a way to play in tune. I've done both, and the latter may require a lot of extra effort. My current basses are set up well, and I have a tuba that has excellent intonation. Sure makes it easier and more enjoyable. Well, at least for me it does. YMMV.

+ 1

You seem to be leaping to conclusions. No offense.

Who is advocating having inconsistent basic intonation? Who's saying it takes a long time to complete an overly anal intonation? I think we're saying it's simply not neccesary for us to play in tune. You need to remember and adjust no matter where the intonation is set.

As far as your two players after a year question, the correct answer is "It depends". Do you disagree?


If either is still unfamiliar with their bass, no matter how it's set up, after a year...


Unlike you, I haven't checked the intonation on any of my fretless since I originally got them. None has shifted drastically. I have them in different scale lengths. One even has a bar type one piece piezo saddle. If you checked the intonation (it would be a real fluke if it were credit card edge spot on) would you then find it unplayable?

I don't think anyone is advocating inconsistent basic intonation, but some people, to me, aren't advocating for consistent basic intonation either, and in my opinion, if you are not using precise methods to determine intonation then it will be more likely to inconsistent than if you did use precise methods.

And about taking a long time, that was not directed at you, but more at unclejane who twice said that time measuring and getting a precise setup would be better spent practicing. If you're doing setups anyway, taking the extra two minutes to take out a tool and, in my opinion to do it right, is worthwhile.

I do agree that as fretless players we will always need to adjust to be in tune, but muscle memory is important to, how accurate our muscle memory is really determined on how much we'll need to adjust after we put our finger down. I truly believe that a person who has consistent intonation across all strings will develop their muscle memory better than someone who's intonation isn't as consistent. And of course two students will learn differently, and each of their progress after a year will depend on many, many factors. I thought my point was quite simple though. Take it this way then, if these two students are identical twins, have the exact same ability to learn bass, have the exact same ear before starting and musical aptitude, both play for the exact same amount of time, and both practice the exact same material. I do think that student A will eventually come out with better immediate intonation. Sure student B, will be good at getting into tune, same as student A, but A, I believe, will be closer initially, and to me, that counts for a lot.

And no, I wouldn't find your bass unplayable. I would adjust as necessary.

This thread is getting real ridiculous, by the way. I don't understand why anyone would try to preach to a fretless noob, not to do their own setups and that it doesn't matter that much. I don't even understand how anyone can adopt that theory. Just because you don't feel the need to do it, does not mean that need does not exist.

I'm done. This thread is just going to continue in a pointless argument.

Audiodwebe, you seem to want to get accurate setups, which recommend. use the link I posted in post #3. If you feel the relief is too high, then lower it, and measure where are so you know for next time. If the action is too high, then do the same. Experiment and re-measure. Next time you attempt to set it up, you know where everything should be so you know if it needs a little adjustment or not. Different basses will be better with different measurements and different strings matter too. What works on one bass will not work another, but if you find a bass that sings to you, with strings to match, then by all means measure and find what's right. It makes doing your setups a lot easier and more precise. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This really doesn't have much if anything to do with instrument quality or inconsistencies. There's nothing inconsistent with even a less than credit card edge setup... the notes remain where they are.