How to Succeed as an Original Band

[TRichardsbass]

Phew. Got through all eleven pages, and yes there's some nuggets in there. Thanks Tom for starting the thread and doing a nice job of managing it, and to everyone who has contributed.

A little about me - After playing bass in local blues bands for 4 years, at the end of 2008 I decided it was well and truly time to chase the dream and put my own band together, playing my originals. I put together rough demos, taking care of vocals, guitar and bass myself, and went hunting for a drummer and guitarist. Progress has been slow with a handful of gigs, trying to find the right line up (recently I've changed back to playing guitar for gigs), but with more songs being written and more recording, and learning a lot about putting a band together from scratch. I'm doing this because I want to do it, and I have my own benchmarks for success that I want to achieve, but money isn't one of them.

So I guess you'd say I'm starting out, yet at the same time I'm about to turn 40, so I'm not sure how much I can offer to the thread, but I will have plenty of questions



It's this kind of thing that got me searching for threads like this today! So, any tips for what to look for in musicians for an originals band? How do you attract professional, driven, dedicated musicians to your band knowing that there may be little or no monetary return for a long time?

An idea for a future topic - tips on being the band leader, whether that is the frontman/vocalist or otherwise. It's something I sometimes struggle with - balancing being the singer, the songwriter, playing my instrument, as well as organising the band.

cheers,
graham

Welcome to the fray from down under!

You are actually at a phyisical age where locating a steady crew to play with that is relatively dedicated should not be quite as hard, given that what I think is your measure for success is your measure of success.

I like to think of putting a band together for originals like using Match.com for dating. Its a numbers game with a lot of online chatting and emails and a ton of funny stories for the future. Anyone who has ever met someone online and was successful dating them will tell you what you read, what they write and who they are when they show up is normally not the same.

Best way I've found is to put out an ad in your local music rag. Here in NJ in USA that is the Aquarian. Normally only guys and gals who are looking for some stability will answer those ads. After that, craigslist. Instead of putting in that you want dedicated and serious people, just put in the instrument, preferred age, type or style, any experience if you desire it and then let them email and call you. Interview them by phone and by mail as if you were Mick Jagger looking for a new Stone. Then schedule an audition choosing an easy but well known song.

By doing it this way you will hear how good a person is at picking up a piece of material quickly, and also if it is a decently known song you will be able to tell their level of play and experience.

Unfortunately there is really no way to tell who will meet your expectation of reliability. I often guage it on their life situation. Similar in age? Check. Similar in maritial status?
Check. Owns more then one guitar/bass/keyboard? Check. Similar economic status? Check. You can see.

I have found that for me, former label signed musicians near my age and experience level fit well with me and I usually don't have a problem even putting together a one-off type show. However I understand completely the longer term group thing. It might be hardest for people in their early '30s.

Hope this helps. Hey, can I crash at your place if I come down in January for the Aussie Open? ;-)

 

[BardoBass]

How do you attract professional, driven, dedicated musicians to your band knowing that there may be little or no monetary return for a long time?

What TR said about match.com musician finding makes a lot of sense. Getting a successful original band together is NOT my area of expertise, but - one of the bands I played bass in was bassically (ouch) a self-driven project. The main songwriter got going as a solo act and was tearing it up that way, with brilliant songs, the strongest lead vocals I've ever heard, engaging energy, the works. He didn't *always* attract the right kind of players, but I myself drove a rusted out Chevy S10 from Albany NY to Austin TX to join his band at the time. The project, the endeavor of producing those songs, had more inertia than one person.
This produced something of a double-edged sword of ever-revolving band lineups, but I have to call The Raft a successful original project. It sailed for 13 years, played all over the country in grass-roots tours, sold enough CD's to keep gas in the tanks and food in the bellies, and offered us all a rich experience that perhaps even signed artists never get the chance to have. Waking up in a tent in Florida, amidst an orange grove, day labor, gigs, long drives, good people, hard times.

Anyway, the strategy I'm leaning towards for my own songs right now is to get it up and running as a functional, successful, solo act. Then, via small gigs and CD sales, I hope to be able to afford to pay a bassist and drummer, or guitarist and drummer and take bass myself. Because some things are sacred. I'd really appreciate any thoughts anyone might have on that path as opposed to trying to start with a full band.
Back to songwriting: in my previous longwinded rudimentary post I was mentioning how in songwriting there is a creative phase, and then a crafting phase. The ideas come in a flood, you write them down, bash around with them, get a structure, and then start chiseling.
There's another phase though: the sounding board. It's good, maybe even required, for a songwriter to have someone(s) that can be a good honest sounding board. Someone who likes the genre you're working in, generally likes your music and is supportive, but can say things like "that line makes no sense whatsoever", or "going to a major chord there is jarring in context to the lyric", etc.
When I see a lot of the other threads around original bands, sometimes you see a situation where the "frontman" has started writing songs, gets the band to start playing them, and a few months later they've created a monster. The songwriter doesn't have a sounding board, is getting encouragement from nice people, and it progresses beyond a point at which its very easy to correct the situation.

BTW, at a indy music conference in Northampton MA I recently picked up the absolute best book on this subject I have ever read: Songcrafter's Coloring Book by Bill Ayers. There are a lot of books that cover hooks, and forms, rhymes, advise you to have a sounding board, etc, and he does cover all that with great clarity. But what makes this book brilliant, groundbreaking, and I would even say required reading is his incorporation of personality types as applied to songwriting(and even to music business in general) It is through this lens that one can see more of the WHY's and HOW's of songwriting rather than just the WHAT's.

 

[Joe Nerve]

How do you attract professional, driven, dedicated musicians to your band knowing that there may be little or no monetary return for a long time?

My experience and thoughts...

Attracting professional, driven, dedicated musicians to your band is incredibly difficult, unless you have something really special to offer. The fact that we think our music is the greatest ever written isn't going to cut it either, because there are tons and tons of great music out there. The best musicians are going to naturally gravitate towards the gigs that offer the most. Could be great gigs, great visible connections, a great reputaion. Once in a very blue moon somenone will fall in love with your music and want to support it, but in my experience that's rare. Sounds cynical, but I believe it to be true. I have found solutions however.

I've played a couple of Joe Nerve solo shows, and I could get a gig together for next week if I had to. How? By playing with as many bands as I can possibly play with, and meeting as many musicians as I possibly can. And by becoming friends with them all. Showing them I'm solid and trustworthy and would help them out if they needed it. Basically networking. If one plays in lets say 6 bands in one year, and makes a good impression on all those people, that's 6 drummers, 6 guitarists, 6 singers.... you get the idea. Play for others, do a great job, and in most instances they'll return the favor if they can.

The other thing I've done that many musicians are against is simply pay someone. My original stuff is all recorded. I can give it to a pro, they'll chart it and be able to perform it in a day. When I was in The Nerve we often needed drummers (went through about 8 of them that were members). When one fell by the wayside we hired someone till we found the next. It's easy to find guys/gals willing to play a gig for $100 including a rehearsal or 2. If ya only play one gig a month it is sooooo worth the price sometimes. And once they know the material a lot of musicians will take $50 - $75 a gig. Considering the studio costs, the hassle of auditioning people, the time spent dealing with and reharsing the people that DON'T wind up working out... it even becomes a good financial decision. You gotta know some musicians though, or ask around because you can wind up having to pay flakes also. I find it interesting that musicians snarl at the idea of hiring other musicians, but they'll throw sometimes 10s of thousands into studio costs, mastering, packaging, promotion, equipment they don't need (who needs 20 basses, besides me). Unwillingness to pay musicians I think has karmic laws attached to it. Or follows the laws of the self fulling prophecy. If you think musicians aren't worth paying, then you have to have the same believe regarding yourself. Musicians will often be more willing to pay a roadie, than another musician.

Craigslist and local papers are good for finding people, but IME better for finding bands than individuals. It's real hard to get a bunch of people together to audition them, and regardless of the screening I've done I've had way more failures than successes. I can't even imagine auditioning for an entire band. To replace one person, maybe. When auditioning drummers we usually gave them 4 songs and told them to learn 3. It showed how much they cared, and gave us a good idea what their capabilities and work ethic were.

My $.02.

Oh yeah... most original bands that work out well usually come from friends starting out together, or getting together from other groups. Starting by oneself has got to be the toughest route to go. Hence, do whatever ya can to make it work until you've got something that people want to be a part of.

 

[sloasdaylight]

How do you attract professional, driven, dedicated musicians to your band knowing that there may be little or no monetary return for a long time?

cheers,
graham

Graham,

My experience, and I've been fortunate to work with a lot of quality musicians so far, both in just little pickup bands, in school, and in my own band as well. What I've found that works best for attracting other musicians to you and your cause, is to be professional, driven, and dedicated yourself. You can't expect others to be what you aren't.

The biggest thing though, beyond the above, is that you just HAVE to network your ass off to have any hope of finding other musicians who are as dedicated as you are. Go to a local college, university, or music store and get to know some of the musicians there, and just talk to them and just get to know them.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Okay, back to songwriting 101 for original bands.

Last time we talked about the hook. Now, a little more about actual song writing.

Writing lyrics or music, one comes before the other. Which makes it hard to sometimes make a good or great song appear. I have my ZOOM R16 at the ready all the time as an idea sketch pad. I have so many pieces of music and tunes that I wish that something would really pop. I also have notebooks filled with phrases, poems, general rants. For me, songs usually start and finish with the lyrics. When I get words that work, then I start to put music around it. That is usually very, very hard, as you need a melody and cadence that will work.

When I write music, I usually have a hard time putting lyrics to it, because I don't have a theme or idea, just music.

Songwriting, the craft, takes days, weeks, hours and sometimes months to get one song to the point of it being ready to record for score. I continue to be amazed at the new Springsteen DVD where he throws out more decent verses in songs then I've written verses for all my songs.

So that is todays lesson. You have to be willing to throw out the baby with the bath water. Write a song, write a lyric. Play with the melody. write a version with one certain melody. Then go back and throw it out, and use the same lyrics with a different melody. Then throw that out and use different lyrics with the same melody. Keep playing with it until you know that one version you have written really can't be improved on, that changing it only makes it worse.

Think about "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." For an exercise, take the tune and keep it, but replace all the lyrics after the word Somewhere. Keep the somewhere and try to rewrite the song. See if you can improve it (I'm betting overall you can't but you will come up with something totally cool.). Now, do the opposite. Keep all the lyrics and try changing the tune. See what that does.

Song writing takes work. A lot of work. Original bands need to make sure that every song in a 30 minute set could be a Billboard number one. So try that tonight. Do my exercise and see what you come up with. If you come up with something cool, load it to YouTube and post the link here. I'd love to see it.

Any questions?

 

[dj150888]

Something you just said in passing, regarding lyrics there, TRichardsbass, that I think is worth re-stating, is the importance of having a notebook or some way of recording a phrase when it comes to you.

I carry a little notebook with me at all times. My way of writing lyrics generally sees me working from one line, or even just a few words to convey an atmosphere. I then build the lyrics around the atmosphere and general mood from that one line. I often find that the line in question doesn't even appear in my final draft, but its enough to get my creative juices flowing.

You never know when you'll think of a piece, or be inspired by something around you. You don't want to think of "that line", only to go home and forget it.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Many pages can and have been written here on songwriting. My process is the opposite of Tom's. I rarely, if ever, come up with lyrics and a melody first. That's the hardest way for me to work, yet I think it's the way most people do.

I come up with something, could be a guitar part, bass part, even drum part that I like... and then work at it. Try to come up with the difinitive "next" part, and often structure it the typical intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, lead and throw a bridge in somewhere. I also however don't make that law- as in the song in my 1 1/2 min song in the video below (I like posting examples - and getting hits ). After I have scratch tracks of bass guitar and drums I can start scat singing something. A melody or idea almost always surfaces, as does a word or phrase that keeps repeating itself, and then I start working at the lyrics. Sometimes they just flood in, often times I have to really work at it.

There's only really 3 tips or suggestions I can think of right now that I need to listen to myself as I haven't come up with anything in a while:

1. Commit to putting time in every single day, no matter what. A 15 minute commitment was enough to get me through a handful of songs last year. If that's all I could put it, so be it, but it usually turned into at least a half hour, sometimes 3 or 4 hours. Point was I had to put something, anything in, every single day.

2. I like to put a hook into every instrument. Not always possible, but I prefer all parts of song to be different and work with each other. If there's a hook in the drums (it can be done - think "walk this way" and countless other songs). a hook in the bass, a hook in the guitar, a hook in the melody, and a hook in the lyrics - I think you've got yourself a pretty memorable tune.

3. If you put time in and come up with nothing or get nothing accomplished don't beat yourself up as is so easy to do. Consider it time you had to put in to get closer to your finished product. An inevitable bump, hill or mountain in the road that simply had to be gotten over or around. The skys have opened up for me after being really stuck at times. Good example again in the video below. I can't tell you HOW stuck I was for a guitar part for that song. Bass came first. Days of crap on guitar came next. Then it hit me. The simplest crap on the guitar worked the best.

That's all I got for now.

And thanks Tom for starting a really great thread. Not sure if I thanked ya yet. There really is a lot going on here.

 

[NKUSigEp]

Being in an original band is very much different from being in a cover band, but in many ways has similarities to cover bands. The biggest difference comes from the fact that original bands are playing all new content. Cover bands and original bands have to work just as hard at rehearsing, promoting, performing and booking. What they don't have to worry about is playing untested material. Lets face it, if its a hit on the radio or YouTube, and you can play it decently, it will be received well when you play it.

Cover bands can therefore build a following easier, as if they play any of the music styles decently they will be able to find a few clubs that will book them consistently. The bar patrons will react to them well and then the cover band is on its way to steady paying gigs. What doesn't exist for cover bands is the ultimate payoff, the ability to get signed by a label and one day play Madison Square Garden.

Original bands not only have to be superior performers (not musicians but performers) but also have to create at least one hours worth of new songs, record them, shop and promote them. Since most bars will hire only cover bands, the number of venues is exponentially smaller.

Today's tip for original band success: Spend at least one hour a day writing songs and lyrics. Bassists can too. Create at least two hours of songs that you can choose from to beat up, hone, change, record and then play live. For every 10 songs you write maybe three will ever see the light of day. Make sure everyone contributes to the song. Have all of the songs critiqued by either people you know like that kind of music or someone who is not close to you. Don't get discouraged by their reaction, use it as constructive criticism to either improve your song, improve your songwriting or as a big thank you for screening out the crap no one will ever want to hear.

So, get to it original bands. Start writing today, one hour!

I agree with that but I think the overall scene has as much or more to do with it than anything. In Cincinnati it's common knowledge that this place is a death trap for original bands. If you want to make any headway you have to work the internet hard and gig around the region and beyond.

This place used to be a cornerstone for recording in the 30's through 50's and then times changed and artists went elsewhere. At my old job, I'd drive by the building where Hank Williams recorded most of his hits.

 

[g_man]

Graham,

My experience, and I've been fortunate to work with a lot of quality musicians so far, both in just little pickup bands, in school, and in my own band as well. What I've found that works best for attracting other musicians to you and your cause, is to be professional, driven, and dedicated yourself. You can't expect others to be what you aren't.

The biggest thing though, beyond the above, is that you just HAVE to network your ass off to have any hope of finding other musicians who are as dedicated as you are. Go to a local college, university, or music store and get to know some of the musicians there, and just talk to them and just get to know them.

Thank you all for your thoughts, it's given me some things to think about and change. I think sloasdaylight's first point is the most relevant for me right now. I am "professional, driven and dedicated", but maybe not consistently, and that needs to change. The other thing is that I need to raise the bar of what I'm looking for and be patient.

The other thing that got me thinking was Joe Nerve's comments about hiring someone for gigs - I've often thought about it, but haven't done it yet. I'm in the process of having a chart and at least a simple demo of all the songs I want to do live and that should help make hiring someone for a one-off gig fairly easy.

Tom - if you're serious about heading south for the winter definitely get in touch.

cheers,
graham




(I've de-registered my old username as my posts on forums would come up when doing a google search for the band.)

 

[TRichardsbass]

Many pages can and have been written here on songwriting. My process is the opposite of Tom's. I rarely, if ever, come up with lyrics and a melody first. That's the hardest way for me to work, yet I think it's the way most people do.

I come up with something, could be a guitar part, bass part, even drum part that I like... and then work at it. Try to come up with the difinitive "next" part, and often structure it the typical intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, lead and throw a bridge in somewhere. I also however don't make that law- as in the song in my 1 1/2 min song in the video below (I like posting examples - and getting hits ). After I have scratch tracks of bass guitar and drums I can start scat singing something. A melody or idea almost always surfaces, as does a word or phrase that keeps repeating itself, and then I start working at the lyrics. Sometimes they just flood in, often times I have to really work at it.

There's only really 3 tips or suggestions I can think of right now that I need to listen to myself as I haven't come up with anything in a while:

1. Commit to putting time in every single day, no matter what. A 15 minute commitment was enough to get me through a handful of songs last year. If that's all I could put it, so be it, but it usually turned into at least a half hour, sometimes 3 or 4 hours. Point was I had to put something, anything in, every single day.

2. I like to put a hook into every instrument. Not always possible, but I prefer all parts of song to be different and work with each other. If there's a hook in the drums (it can be done - think "walk this way" and countless other songs). a hook in the bass, a hook in the guitar, a hook in the melody, and a hook in the lyrics - I think you've got yourself a pretty memorable tune.

3. If you put time in and come up with nothing or get nothing accomplished don't beat yourself up as is so easy to do. Consider it time you had to put in to get closer to your finished product. An inevitable bump, hill or mountain in the road that simply had to be gotten over or around. The skys have opened up for me after being really stuck at times. Good example again in the video below. I can't tell you HOW stuck I was for a guitar part for that song. Bass came first. Days of crap on guitar came next. Then it hit me. The simplest crap on the guitar worked the best.

That's all I got for now.

And thanks Tom for starting a really great thread. Not sure if I thanked ya yet. There really is a lot going on here.

Thanks for a great post Nerve! I think this adds to the thread greatly. Songwriting is a PROCESS, and everyone has a different PROCESS. What works for me may not ever work for you and vice versa. I enjoy the fact that you also point out that a bassline came followed by days of guitar crap. Songwriting is WORK! Fortunately it can be rewarding work, and often doesn't feel like work.

And yes, don't ever beat yourself up if you don't finish something or you can never connect it. Like I've said previously, I have songs and bits going back 30 years that still aren't finished, not because I haven't tried but because I haven't found the right thing yet.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Something you just said in passing, regarding lyrics there, TRichardsbass, that I think is worth re-stating, is the importance of having a notebook or some way of recording a phrase when it comes to you.

I carry a little notebook with me at all times. My way of writing lyrics generally sees me working from one line, or even just a few words to convey an atmosphere. I then build the lyrics around the atmosphere and general mood from that one line. I often find that the line in question doesn't even appear in my final draft, but its enough to get my creative juices flowing.

You never know when you'll think of a piece, or be inspired by something around you. You don't want to think of "that line", only to go home and forget it.

Spot on! Whether it is a notebook and pen, digital recorder, portable studio, PC or a ZOOM/TASCAM/SONY recorder, keep something with you at all times so you can capture the thought, feeling, or tune of the moment for work on later. Thanks for emphasizing the point here DJ!

 

[mambo4]

Re: songwriting, I think being prolific, combined with being willing to edit is key.
To write a good song, write 100 songs and ditch the 99 worst ones.
Don't be tied to your ideas just because they are yours.
Don't confuse ideas that work well enough to be filler with ideas that work well enough to be good.

I think there is a joy we all feel in coming up with musical ideas that fit together and "work" ,
but its easy to confuse that with something that will sound good to an audience, and be appropriate for your band's "sound".
You have to develop an objective set of ears when evaluating your own ideas,
and not fear putting aside an idea that doesn't showcase your best.

I say all this as someone who delusionally held onto many song ideas because they were 'mine' ,
not because they were worth holding onto.

To paraphrase Doug Stanhope :" [songs] are like babies : they're all beautiful - to their creators."
But unlike children you don't have to sacrifice to support ones that don't work.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Songwriting, Part III. Its more then strumming a few chords.

You know what sucks? All those new local indie artists who strum a few chords and finger pick a little and call it a song. Ever try it with just a bass? Works for about two songs, maybe. I do it occasionally at open mics and the first song usually gets a cheer, the second one they start looking for more sound.

Songwriting more often then not means writing or creating ALL the parts of a song, both the rhythm tracks and the melody and vocals. Having a chord structure and lyrics is only one half the battle. All songs take on the feel and tone after you have put all the individual parts together. That is why 1-4-5 still works and sounds fresh, because its the beat and the bass you put under it, coupled with the guitar and keyboard parts.

But how do you write songs and parts? This one is a little less mystifying. All you need to learn can be had from listening to already produced songs. The next time you listen to any song you like, put it on replay. Listen to the song first and get the big picture. Is it happy? Sad? Dark? Funky? Jazzy? Then listen again, and try to determine how many parts/instruments are in it. Is it simple three piece? Is there a synth or piano in there? Did they use regular bass or bass samples? Is it real drums or drum machines with clap sounds?

Pick the song apart by instrument and piece. Pay particular attention to all the guitar parts. Note the space, feel, and style. Even note if they are in both speakers or one. Then, in your notebook or recording sketch pad, note how it sounds and how it seems to sound that way. For example, one technique I add to many songs I learned by listening to Matthew Sweet. He has a unique way of using arpeggios in pseudo lead rhythm guitar parts. So when I want that kind of feel, I will write a part in my song like that.

Since we are all bassists, we have all heard that you don't know the chord until the bass plays the notes. Which is for the most part true. Writing bass parts for songs is where I would assume we all here shine. Unfortunately you have to craft the bass part along with the kick drum part, as they have to not only mesh in time but should not compete with each other. When crafting the perfect hit, the two should often be counter to the other. Heavy double bass drum foot? Simple bass guitar line. Going all Flea and Stanley Clarke? Simple kick drum beat. Remember, these are guides though, so its not absolute.

For a good example of songwriting that will help you with creating ALL the song parts and your next or first hit, I'll suggest listening to these songs:

Lady Madonna by the Beatles. One of the coolest melodic bass lines ever. Barely a guitar in the song. Listen to how the bass sounds and makes the song. Then, take your bass out and play with the song, only this time pedal the notes in stead of McCartney's rising runs. Then play it again and add a billion more notes in the run, maybe a slap and pop. See how it would never have worked without his bass run?

Message in the Bottle by the Police. Pay particular attention to the arpeggio guitar. If you play guitar, do like above. First, just strum simple chords. Then if you want play with the arpeggios. See how what they did worked so damn well?

Finally, Party in the USA by Miley Cyrus. Yes, she didn't write it, but listen to how the songwriters and producers used sparse arrangements to create a huge hit.

As you saw in the past posts, its hook, then beating up on melody and lyrics. Now its beating up and creating each individual part to fit your lyrics and melody. For me, while I usually have an idea in my head, its another bunch of hours and days working on parts. Once I get the right parts, then its into the 16 track. And as some of us here know, that is only the beginning.

So have some fun. Can't wait to hear what other TBers do when writing complete songs with instrument and vocal parts.

 

[TheVoiceless]

I have not read this entire thread, so please excuse me if this has been covered. But something I think is important to remember as a serious musician is how to take a compliment. Its really weird when I hear a fan go up to a musician after a show and say "that was great, good job" then hear the player go on about how they missed the cue for the chorus, or even worse how they "suck". By doing that you are not being humble. Truth is for those can't play or who can but are scared of the stage, even playing in front of 15 people can be a big deal. So treat it as such. Graciously say "thanks, glad you enjoyed the show". And if you want to turn it into a conversation ask "what did you enjoy about the show?"

The singer for my band did something I hate to hear from singers, apologizing for the band before they screw up. That's just looking for sympathy. The majority of people do not care that you JUST learned this tune. Its fine to say "hey this is a new song". But its self defeating to be too humble.

For most fans there is still a lot of mystique that goes into music. And its good to have that because they are far more forgiving on the band then most members are on their own band. Embrace the love, because when you turn down the compliment you are insulting the person paying you the compliment.

Also if ever approached by someone with a negative comment, remember that's just their opinion, not everyone's. And embrace them as well. Is it something constructive, or just being rude or mean. We all can learn from our mistakes, but it sometimes takes someone else to point them out to address them.

Hope this helps. Best !!

 

[aztomr]

I have recently started to write songs with a friend who plays guitar(we started our current band together). I tend to write the lyrics and basic chord structure, pass it on to him with an idea of how I think the melody should sound like. My buddy then "finishes" the song. At this point we present it to the rest of the band and build it up as a group. I write on guitar, but find it easier to get "our sound" if I leave things like the guitar hook to the guitar player. I tend to have an idea of what I want to do on bass, but I wait to hear the "finished" song to come up with what I'll play. After that its alot of second guessing and trying different things until it works.

 

[OPBASSMAN1994]

TheVoiceless brought up a good point. I'm guilty of this problem at times. However, I'm getting better I think.

 

[BardoBass]

Somewhere over the bassline,
Guitards play...

While of course, everyone has a varying process, I feel its important to mention that "songwriting" is writing the lyric and melody(and generally chords). Adding other parts is the art of arranging.
Obviously, the arrangement and orchestration is extremely important, but AFAIK it's not songwriting per se, and it might be important to be clear on these things when working on tunes in a collaborative environment.
For instance, recently I was working with a famous-in-folkie-circles songwriter who is recovering from a stroke. (quite an honor) I came up with some fingerpicked guitar parts for a song if his, and vocal harmonies, and wrote them out. Occasionally at my suggestion, even some chord placement/voicings were changed.That doesn't make me a co-writer of the song. I simply did some guitar and vocal arrangement. Contrastingly, a fellow songwriter was stuck in one of his songs once, asked for assistance, and I ended up writing the third verse. In that case I'd call that co-writing.
When you're writing and arranging your own material, the lines blur, but still I think it's a useful distinction (for some) to make - when you're moving on to guitar parts, horns and strings, you're not in the songwriting phase.

Where this might come in handy is if you're spending a lot of time on killer arrangements, but not enough on the lyrics and/or melody. It's a mistake I've made more than once. The point of this post isn't to be dogmatic; these are just some concepts and distinctions I find useful, and if I'm not mistaken, hold true in music business as well.

 

[fractiouslowend]

10 years experience? There are bands that have had multiple gold albums in less than 10 years.

true, but do you think that the members of that band have never been in other bands before?

 

[TheVoiceless]

TheVoiceless brought up a good point. I'm guilty of this problem at times. However, I'm getting better I think.

Thanks, I see so many very capable and talented people throw themselves under the bus. I know I have done in it the past, but until it was brought to my attention I did not think anything of it. And when I thought about it, it really is an insult to the person who went out of their way to pay you a compliment. Its almost like saying "hey you have no idea what you are talking about, I suck".

 

[TRichardsbass]

Today's topic. The original band and the last minute gig.

I'm bringing this up because it does become a huge issue, and I've seen it even in some posts here. And I have a particular situation that just came up on my end.

Everyone here knows that when you are in an original band gigs are rarely scheduled months or weeks ahead of time. Often, club owners and promoters will call with 48 hours or less notice and ask if you can do a show. Since most of us in original bands usually have another revenue stream that allows us to eat and have a roof over our heads, being able to react on very short notice can sometimes be hard.

There usually is not formula for this, but my experience usually finds that when the call comes, usually band members have to be immediately contacted and there is a 24 hour or less scramble to coordinate the date, whether you are able to take it or not. Anyone of us who have been doing this for a long time know the pain of it, especially when a key band member is not reachable in the time you wish.

I have one solution that may be of use for bands starting out or starting to get some decent and regular gig offers. Its a calendar of sorts, but not quite like others have.

My calendar has every event on it that effects the band as a band, and most of the events that effect individuals personally. So, each week on Monday night I have a call or get together to discuss the next two weeks and also review the out months as well. Obviously the calendar had all the rehearsals scheduled, and any gigs that have been agreed to ahead of time on it. That's a no brainer.

Next I overlay availability of each member. So say I am not available on Monday, then the calendar will show I am unavailable on Monday but clear for the next two weeks. Lets say the drummer cannot make it Monday and Tuesday. Then his overlay shows his availability.

I do that for every date. So if I get a last minute call for a gig, then I can immediately answer yes or no and then notify the band members. Based on my quick example above, if I got a call for Monday or Tuesday, I would immediately respond no. Life is good. If I got a request for Wednesday, I would respond yes and fire a text or email to everyone with the details and the booking. Peoples availability is often overlooked on the calendar. Tracking each members availability makes booking much easier.

One thing I add to the calendar is the personal info that may effect us. That means birthdays, anniversaries, spouse/sig other birthdays, anniversaries, reunions, parties, et cetera as soon as we know them. When looking at bookings made with sufficient notice, these types of availability overlays are good. Clearly, if someone in the band has a wedding anniversary or significant other has a birthday, those days are pretty much no gig days unless we are going to open for Bruce Springsteen or Social D. And they also effect availability because usually around those days personal events are planned by our spouses or sig others, and they need to be factored in. If we didn't have gracious and understanding better halves we wouldn't be able to do this anyway. So they get factored in as well.

Lastly, I always overlay peoples work schedules and calendars so that I can see if someone will be out of town, and also so I know when and how to reach them should I need to contact them during their work hours.

That may seem like a lot of info to track, but if you have it and follow it life and scheduling will be come much easier. Obviously, if someone has said they are available to gig they cannot change it without immediate notice to me. When we meet each week once they have coordinated the schedule it is their committment. Even is a day is open they have to treat it like it may not be.

So that is one of my solutions. You might ask, what happens if at the last minute that opening slot for Winger comes up? Well first you go to the calendar. Lets say not everyone is available. Then I look at why that person isn't available. Is he out of town? Then its a no. Is he in town but has a work conflict? Then its a maybe. Is it a signigicant personal day? Again a maybe. But that means I call the person the minute they are available and see if they can work something out. If they can, then gigs on! (Kip Winger will be happy). If not, then its a no. Also depending on which member it is, we might still take the gig although one short. If I do that then the one who didn't make it still gets a cut of the proceeds. Its my choice, and if the band can funtion and take a gig like that then it happens. So, if a second guitar or keys can't be in the mix, my band can still do a hell of a show, so I'll take the gig, let everyone know, and the one who can't make it knows that they aren't cut out.

That's my take.

Anyone else have a different method or anything to add?