How to write better bass lines?

[activa44]

I'll jump in here - I think if you hear something you like, you have to study and learn to applyl what's happening in your own way. Maybe you've been doing this.

i listened to some of the tracks and even put the rudimentary peni album into Moises so i can turn change the mix around to hear what the bass was doing in relation to other instruments. What i hear starts with playing roots - fine, but then there's walking to connect to the next chord - sometimes its a 1-3-4-b5-5 kind of thing. Somtimes it's pentatonic, sometimes it's playing around with octaves or approach tones. All this to say i'd start with what is the root movement. Play only roots for awhile - get it in your ear. Then you can add things - approach tones (a step or 1/2 step above or below the next note), or add other chord tones - 5ths even. Or add scale walks up or down to the next chord - use your ear to determine the quality of the scale (minor.major, pentatonic). Sometimes the vocal melody might matter. So to approach a song:
1. what's the basic chords and root movement - i get the sense your question is beyond this - how to create interesting lines over those chord changes.
2. For each chord what are the chord tones and more importantly how do you connect this chord to the next one?
2a. sometimes the melody can provide clues so it's always good to play the melody or at least hear it as you connect the bass to it

Yes it's theory but it's pretty basic. That said, this music is not easy - some of the chord progressions are angular and the tempos are wicked lol. The concepts of what's happening to create melodic bass lines are not that complicated though. You can learn them on simpler things and then apply it here. it's the work of a lifetime. it will take time and many small steps.

An example of an amazing line in another genre is James Jamersons Darling Dear. Lots of chord tones with chromatic approach. Note how the bass meets up with the vocals here and there, like where the vocal says "to be sincere, and true love will appear.." at about 1:40. A lot of what's happening here is also happening in Rudimentary Peni believe it or not.

Thank you for the in-depth reply!

I try to think in terms of chords with the bass too indeed. I think that, as you suggested, it might be a good idea to try playing over a guitar track in real time rather than think it theoretically by just watching a tab and playing the bass alone...

 

[activa44]

The examples you posted contain a lot of, what theorists call, nonfunctional harmony. This just means that analyzing the chord progressions won't necessarily give you a lot of info as to what the "right" notes are.
Also, since the music is mostly power chords with a few triads, learning chord/scale relationships for 13th, sus, 7th altered chords, etc. is information you don't need. It's nice to know, but it probably won't help you with those types of music.

I don't want to discourage you from learning theory, but if I were you, I'd just get started by experimenting with connecting the roots of the guitar chords with notes in between that sound right to you. IMO, part of what makes raw music like this interesting is the sometimes "wrong" notes. Just like in free jazz, if you play something that's not necessarily explainable by theory with enough conviction, it will work.

Thank you! I'm trying indeed to figure out if and what I'd need from musical theory, because it seems like a vast world and a task takes a lifetime to master. I always try to experiment on bass rather than just follow the root note (when there is space for experimentation, of course).

I agree about the wrong notes though, but I guess that people like Invunche (one-man-band, mind you!) and Rudimentary Peni's bassist surely knew a thing or two.

 

[activa44]

The distinction I was making was between "writing" bass lines using pencil and paper (or modern gadget equivalent) versus playing the tune in real time and making up a line according to what you hear. The offline bassline creation using pencil and paper is a good way to create lines that seem like they'd be good but actually don't sound good.

Oh no, of course I mean playing them on the bass first and foremost. Maybe while looking at the guitar tab, for instance.

 

[Lo-E]

Oh I do my best to learn some, yeah! I know about that. But most of them are very obscure to find tabs to and tough to decipher by ear.

If you can’t figure out exactly what they’re playing by ear, try to figure out something else that works and sounds good. That’s just as important an exercise because that’s basically what coming up with your own bass lines is all about.

Forget tabs. They’re often wrong anyway and they eliminate the ear training of figuring out the lines on your own.

Another good exercise is just to figure out how to play the main melody of songs you like. It helps you to connect what you’re hearing with positions on the fingerboard.

Those are things you can do without any theoretical knowledge at all but it’s still a good idea learn some basic theory. Either something like Music Theory for Dummies or a basic bass method like Ed Friedland’s can start helping you to build a foundation. And, of course…. a teacher.

 

[LordRyan]

Check out Pete Farndon with The Pretenders. When I tried figuring out the guitar parts from their records It sounded like they were using exotic chords. When I watched their videos I could see they were using the most basic major and minor chords. It was Farndon playing non-root bass notes such as an E note under a G chord that gave the illusion of more sophisticated harmony.

 

[Flatwound]

There's a lot of wisdom here. For the music in your OP (I admit, I didn't listen to all of it), you won't need much formal theory. Some theoretical knowledge definitely won't hurt you, though.

One of the most important things in my bass journey was when, years ago, my wife bought me a master class with Victor Wooten at a local music museum (group class, not one-on-one). I don't remember how long ago it was, but a lot of what he said and showed is still rattling around in my brain, and sometimes, I can apply something I haven't applied before. For that matter, I'm still benefitting from a music theory class I took in the tenth grade, and I'm 66 now.

Maybe you haven't found the right teacher. I've had a couple of lame ones in the past. Now, I know a couple of guys, who, if I were to spend an hour with them, would keep me thinking for weeks or months.

 

[KenSmithFan]

Already tried (with guitar) for a year when I was little, it was my first approach to wanting to make music. The result has been swearing not to touch the guitar ever again because I wasn't ''cut for it''. Thank goodness that I started playing and writing by ear a few years later... YMMV, I'm not dismissing teachers or that type of learning, but it just isn't for me.

A qualified teacher will save years of work achieving what you say you want to do. There is no easy, fun way to do this; it’s a lot of hard work. If it was easy, everyone could do it.

But if you insist on doing things the hard way, start transcribing bass lines that you like, writing them out. Then write the chords over the lines. Then STUDY them. Then start incorporating them into your playing.

 

[brianrost]

Even trying to figure out what they play by ear is an excruciating task to me (Peni and Dawn of Humans in particular) and I suppose that is because I know no music theory.

Music theory is just an explanation of how music is constructed by studying music of the past…anything from Bach to modern jazz…and discovering what is commonly used and what isn’t.

Where theory helps when learning songs by ear is guessing what the notes and chords might be based on what notes are before and after. If the current chord is a C major or minor, I would expect to mostly hear the notes in that key. That is called diatonic. When notes outside of the key are used it’s called chromatic.

I highly doubt these musicians (as raw and unpolished their music might seem) know nothing about theory.
So here's what I'm asking you: is there any essential tip (or bit of theory) that I should know, to help me write more original (and different from the guitar) bass lines?

Essential tips?

1. Listen to songs that have bass lines you really like and learn them note for note or as close as you can. Even better, write them down as you learn so you can refer to them later. You may be surprised to find out how many bass lines use the same basic building blocks. Jeff Berlin has said that if you want to be a rock bassist just go find one of those “Top 100 rock albums of all time” lists, get a copy of all the albums on the list and learn every song on them by ear. By the time you are done you will have the answer to your question about how to write an interesting bass line.

2. Start learning melodies of songs, it doesn't even matter what style, just learn the melodies and see how they are constructed. You can start easy with ones like “Silent Night” and other Christmas carols you’ve heard a million times and then anything from the Beatles to Green Day to the theme music from your favorite TV show. Then steal cool things you hear and try using them in your bass lines.

 

[mikeynets]

Thank you for the in-depth reply!

I try to think in terms of chords with the bass too indeed. I think that, as you suggested, it might be a good idea to try playing over a guitar track in real time rather than think it theoretically by just watching a tab and playing the bass alone...

100% this. If you're trying to learn a song and using tabs, you have to listen to it since tab doesn't include any time information the way actual music notation does.

Use the playback speed on YouTube to slow it down. Get the feel of the song under your fingers then play it at the normal speed.

Couple of other points:

A lot of heavier/faster music (with a few notable exceptions) the bass is often doubling the guitar just because there's not enough time/space for intricate or contrapuntal lines. Even Matt Freeman from Rancid is often outlining the chords and using a lot of chromatic and/or scale runs to lead from one chord to the next. But you could play these songs paring down a ton of notes and it would still work. His style is key to their sound, but it would still work at least as an exercise.

If you're looking to add some spice to your basslines for original songs, I find it helps to start by just playing the chord changes as roots, then hum a complimentary melody to the vocals and then incorporate that melody with your root notes, linking them together in an interesting way.
Then, strip away a lot of the notes! The space between notes is super impactful — especially for bass.

 

[activa44]

If you can’t figure out exactly what they’re playing by ear, try to figure out something else that works and sounds good. That’s just as important an exercise because that’s basically what coming up with your own bass lines is all about.

Forget tabs. They’re often wrong anyway and they eliminate the ear training of figuring out the lines on your own.

Another good exercise is just to figure out how to play the main melody of songs you like. It helps you to connect what you’re hearing with positions on the fingerboard.

Those are things you can do without any theoretical knowledge at all but it’s still a good idea learn some basic theory. Either something like Music Theory for Dummies or a basic bass method like Ed Friedland’s can start helping you to build a foundation. And, of course…. a teacher.

Don't get me wrong, I know that a lot of tabs are wrong, but some aren't, and I already trained my ear enough to decipher a lot of songs... I just think I don't know enough theory to figure out some of the more complex ones. When I mentioned tabs I meant even self-made tabs of my own songs, for instance.

 

[luckydawgg169]

Pretty easy answer...practice, study and playing with other musicians. Once thats down talent and creativeness helps write better basslines,and if ya dont have that those its not in the cards for you. Theres no formula for good basslines....

 

[Geepers]

Theres no formula for good basslines....

Exactly. And that’s why I don’t use theory to create them. Gut and ear every time for me.

 

[J Wilson]

I got nothing. I always cue from the vocals/melody, but I don't hear much in these samples I'd key on instead of locking into those grooves in an almost monolithic fashion.

There's not a thing wrong in seemingly simple music at all, but it does limit you a bit in that very busy bass lines could quickly muddy the water, even at these speeds.

As far as knowing no theory, listen, every one of us started from where you are, and asking to learn is all that's required. I'd get any good beginner bass method, and just begin to learn your scales and intervals, what major third is, a perfect fifth, etc., and be sure you commit to memory what they sound like, so when you have them in a song, you will recognize them.

All the Best,

JW

 

[Pirate Captain]

"If you don't feel it...don't play it." -the guy who came up with the entire groundbreaking bassline for What's Going On in one take while so drop-dead drunk he had to lay down on the floor while they recorded it

 

[Iristone]

Doing some ear training can be helpful. I'd start with songs that have melodic basslines mixed in an easily audible way - such as The Beatles' "Something" and The Who's "Eminence Front". Lately I'm in the mood of Piknik's "Noch'" - beautiful sub-melody, but there's no tab to compare with.
A good pair of headphones can help. When I got my first pro cans (AKG K702) I was amazed at how clearly I can hear any single bass notes. Now I use a pair of Etymotic ER2SE in-ears that gives a clear but not bloated low end.
As for music theory - I think of it like linguistic theory, in that it's more descriptive than prescriptive. You don't need to learn it in order to talk, but it can help you better understand and optimise what you do.

 

[mikeynets]

Doing some ear training can be helpful. I'd start with songs that have melodic basslines mixed in an easily audible way - such as The Beatles' "Something" and The Who's "Eminence Front". Lately I'm in the mood of Piknik's "Noch'" - beautiful sub-melody, but there's no tab to compare with.
A good pair of headphones can help. When I got my first pro cans (AKG K702) I was amazed at how clearly I can hear any single bass notes. Now I use a pair of Etymotic ER2SE in-ears that gives a clear but not bloated low end.
As for music theory - I think of it like linguistic theory, in that it's more descriptive than prescriptive. You don't need to learn it in order to talk, but it can help you better understand and optimise what you do.

Good analogy. And you brought me back to some lit crit college memories of Saussure

 

[dougjwray]

I know it's late, but I'll jump in...
I think two things are getting slightly conflated here.
Knowledge
Creativity
In my opinion, knowledge of theory is very valuable for starting at a place where you can "color inside the lines." You at least know that the notes you play will fit. It's like a painter choosing a color pallette before beginning a painting. Knowledge also includes knowing what all the notes on the neck sound like-- being able to hear a melody and visualize it on the neck without actually having a bass in your hands. This comes only from lots of practicing, even if it's simply sitting on the couch with a bass and trying to copy the melody of every TV commercial jingle that comes on. You also want to copy whatever ideas your favorite bassists come up with. Do it by ear, no matter how long that takes. It gets easier the more you do it. You specifically asked about bass parts which complement guitar parts. Listen to your favorite bands and study how the various bassists approach this issue. You really have to be patient and use your ears. If it takes six hours to figure out four measures, so be it.
Now, creativity...
With knowledge of the fingerboard, a developed ear and a "database" of bass parts in your head, you'll be surprised how easily new ideas will come to you. Turn off the analytical part of your brain, and let them rise to the surface, which will happen even while you're going for a walk, driving, etc. At this point, you can either "color within the lines" (above) or not! It's up to you. You will find your own voice, which will be a new composite of your favorite bassists' voices.
I really hope this helps. Good luck and have fun!

 

[Sean150]

I’m kinda feeling my way into composition so I can understand where you’re coming from. I personally found that learning a moderate amount of theory helped me a lot by giving me building blocks that I could play around with. I am not an expert by any means, but it allowed me to sit down and play with, say, chord tones, and find out what sounds good and what doesn’t. It also allows you to have a name for something that you’ve learned so you can recall it when your learning others lines/riffs.

I also had a bad music teacher that made me swear off music for over a decade, so I can understand why you might not want to spend money on a teacher. Instead I’ll give you a few things to look into that helped me. You don’t need to become an expert in them but to be able to have a bit of an understanding unlocks a lot.

1. Know your chord tones, and learn two or three shapes for them. There are 2 main chord types in rock music, major and minor. On the bass these notes are always in a relative position to the root note. So if you know a couple of shapes for each type of chord and the root note, you now have three different notes you can choose from for each root note.
2. Learn the degrees of the scale. There are 8 notes in the major scale and pretty much all note theory is referred to in reference to these numbers. For instance a minor scale is a major scale but the 3rd, 6th and 7th notes are flattened (one fret lower). If you understand this then you won’t have to memorize fret positions nearly as much, but a set of shapes that are related to the chord shapes you already know.
3. Don’t be afraid to experiment. Writing music is creative and some of the best sounds are things that aren’t “correct”. The only way to stumble onto these kind of ideas is by playing around to see what works.

A way to think of it is that 1 and 2 are lego bricks and 3 is where you start building.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wood and Wire]

The only theory you really need to know is :

Root, Third, Fifth.

You need to know the Fifth in order to avoid it (it's obvious, and lazy), and you need to know the Root to know what the Third is.

After that, it all about using your ears, and being receptive.

70% of the time, what the rest of the band are playing will reveal what you should play - The idea will present itself.

The other 30% of the time, a riff will come to you, and that will be the foundation the rest of the band base their ideas on.

Your greatest allies are a guitarist who thinks outside the box, rarely relying on meat & potatoes chord progressions, a drummer who thinks like a composer, and band mates who truly listen.

 

[dreamadream99]

I interpret your plea to write better bass lines to mean that you want to know which notes to play ahead of time, before you actually play them. Makes sense. No one wants to constantly make mistakes. No one wants to play by trial and error, hoping for the best; everyone wants to know ALL the possible notes BEFORE they just pick one. As far as I know, there are only two ways to do this:

1. Music Theory. At least which notes are in the current key, and the current chord. Or…
2. A Great Ear. Unless you have perfect pitch, most people take decades to acquire this. You have to listen to and play a LOT of music. So much, that eventually you just know which note to play next, based on the thousands of times you played those thousands of songs just like it.

No matter which route you choose it will take a long time to get there. There are no workarounds, cheats, or shortcuts. You have to learn music theory or develop an infallible ear— one or the other.

No, wait, that’s not true. You don’t have to choose ONE.

In fact, you get bonus points for learning to do both! Then you become that rare kind of player who never makes mistakes. The kind who plays the right notes because (1) they know the rules, AND (2) they have an ear that never fails.