Humcancelling or Single Coil Jazz Pick-ups & Why

[Nedmundo]

So far as I know the ONLY single coils that sound like single coils without hum are those systems with a phantom coil that is ELECTRONICALLY mixed in the signal so it cancels hum but does not get into the signal path. But this is an active system and not common.

There are also Lace Sensors, which sound like single coils because they actually are single coils, with greatly reduced hum due to shielding and other design elements. I have a set of Hot Golds in a Strat, and they are fantastic. I wish Lace made a "Hot Sensor" for Jazz basses similar to my Strat's Hot Golds, i.e., J-bass pickups with an extra punchy, ultra clear version of classic tone.

 

[f.c.geil]

Hum is Satan talking to you through your bass. Personally, I don't want to hear it. I'd rather listen to the Heavenly tones of a good humbucker.

 

[Nev375]

There are also Lace Sensors, which sound like single coils because they actually are single coils, with greatly reduced hum due to shielding and other design elements. I have a set of Hot Golds in a Strat, and they are fantastic. I wish Lace made a "Hot Sensor" for Jazz basses similar to my Strat's Hot Golds, i.e., J-bass pickups with an extra punchy, ultra clear version of classic tone.

Lace also made TranSensors, whuch use just a few windings and then feed that through a sort of step-up transformer. That's what I use in my single-pup J bass because I really like the single-coil sound and I haven't heard any hum-cancelling pickups that are close enough.

Lace also makes the alumitones which I think use the same transformer technology as the TranSensors.

 

[walterw]

hum-canceling "singles" can sound good (they seem to get closer every year to the real thing), but single coils are the real thing, and they sound "like all the records".

for me personally, this applies to my guitars more than my bass (a P-bass); i play a tele with fralin singles, it sounds fantastic, it hums but i don't care; the tactile response makes the noise worth it, and if the audience doesn't like it, too bad

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I say if Leo invented the single coil pickup to have hum then you can't do better than to pay a lot of money to get a vintage hummer!

Leo did not invent the single coil. One of the first guitar pickups was invented and patented by George Beauchamp in 1934. That was the Rickenbacker horseshoe pickup.

There were also humbuckers back before Seth Lover invited the familiar Gibson humbucker in 1959.

Now as far as Leo, he did design several humbuckers, the most notable being the Precision Bass pickup. If he thought single coils were good enough, he would have left one in the P bass. He also hired Lover, who designed the Wide Range humbucker used in the Tele deluxe.

Leo loved to design pickups, so his next design was the Musicman pickup. He must have through that was an improvement.

After that he invented, and patented, the Magnetic Field Design pickups used in his G&L basses.

Just kidding. But first you say there is no difference and then you say "the only difference is..." Well which is it? I'll tell you which it is: THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! As the reasonable people here have said SOME (but certainly not all) humcancelling pickups come close. Some are QUITE different!

I said you can make a humbucker that sounds like a single coil. You would be hard pressed to tell the difference. I make some myself.

I also said you can get several different jazz bass single coils, and they will sound very different. Even from Fender and in the same model bass. Over the years they keep changing them. One might be bright and edgy, while another might be darker and thicker. Even though they are real single coils.

Now when I did my Neo Jazzbuckers, I wasn't trying to sound like a single coil. I actually wanted them to sound like the full size humbuckers. I figured we already have a slew of Jazz bass pickups, so let me offer a different tone. But they sounded a lot like single coils anyway.

Lately I went back to winding them a little lower to keep them nice and bright.

As usual, note that "different" means different, NOT "better" or "worse".

And it depends on how your hum cancelling pickups are made:

A quick review: Usual "soapbar" types have two single coil pickups side by side. Work great except that pickup senses the strings at two places at once so you get a somewhat denser sound with less pristine clarity. It's simple geometry and it CANNOT be made to sound like a single coil.

This is true, however, the very narrow humbuckers like the Duncan Rails and my aforementioned Jazzbuckers do have a very single coil like tone because of the narrow aperture.

Another type is the Side by side pickup like a P-bass. Does a P-bass pickup sound like a jazz pickup? NO they don't. Why? well in this case you sense the strings at only one place but you have two pickups with smaller coils sensing only two strings at a time. Even if you put them in series to add up the inductance it's still not quite the same as a single coil. And in a P-bass the pickups on one set of strings is slightly offset from the pickup on the other two strings. A single coil picks up the same harmonics in every string.

Yes, and no. You left out the coil geometry. P basses have a very squat coil, and a Jazz bass has a tall narrow coil.

Even forgetting that a P bass is a split humbucker, you still have a difference in tone. A good example to use is a Strat vs. a Jazzmaster. Strats have a tall narrow coil, similar to a Jazz bass, while the Jazzmaster has a squat side coil, similar to a P bass. The Strat is bright and chimey while the Jazzmaster has a more mellow, rounder tone, smiler to a P bass.

Which leads to the totally side by side jazz pickup. (like Nordy) Better and closer to single coils (closest in my opinion) but still not exactly right because in this case of pure geometry. The reason P-bass pickups are offset is because you need the ROOM to wind the wire you need on each coil. Side by side humcancellers suffer from that lack of needed winding space. You aren't going to find many "overwound" side by sides!

The issue with the split coils is you have two smaller coils. The inductance is very different in each. But you can get them very close as with the Dimarzio Area J and Nordstrand nj4sv.

And finally there is "stacked coil" "noiseless" pickup Well that IS a single coil pickup with a dummy coil added to cancel hum. Well, since they actually ARE single coil pickups they should sound just like one, right? Wrong. The problem is the dummy coil has lots of inductance even without the magnets and cores and therefore very much changes the sound of the pickup. My experience with these (my MIM Fender V has them) is they do NOT sound close to single coils at all.

There is another issue with stacks. There is a lot of low frequency phase cancelation between the top and bottom coils. This produces a weak thin signal. To compensate for this, they are often over wound. On top of that, to prevent them from becoming too tall, they are wound with thinner gauge wire. This changes the tone.

I tried a few stack designs. The first one was for a Tele style guitar I built. My intention was to have it on the hot side, and not like a vintage tele pickup, so I would it to about 14k. To my surprise, it sounded just like a tele lead pickup, just a little lower output.

I also did a prototype Jazz bass stack, and wasn't crazy about that. It was very bright.

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EMG J pickups are stacks.

So far as I know the ONLY single coils that sound like single coils without hum are those systems with a phantom coil that is ELECTRONICALLY mixed in the signal so it cancels hum but does not get into the signal path. But this is an active system and not common.

You left out sidewinders. They sense the strings in a single location like a single coil.

Bottom line: Hum cancelling pickups do NOT sound like single coil pickups, but some aren't too bad. You just have to give them a listen and use your subjective judgement as to what is decent sounding in YOUR taste.

No, they do sound like single coils, but you are implying that they is only one single coil tone. Does a DarkStar sound like a Jazz bass? No, but it's a single coil. Same is true of the old Guild 302 bass. Those were single coils as well. How about Bartolini 9CBJS S3s? Also different sounding single coils. Another example are Lace Sensors.

So here's some examples I have. I won't list what they are (don't cheat and look at the URL after they open!). None of them are single coils, but they all get what you would expect from a Jazz type bass. I think they are all usable tones, and why would you want to sound exactly like someone else's Jazz bass? There is not only one single coil tone.

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[SGD Lutherie]

Lace also made TranSensors, whuch use just a few windings and then feed that through a sort of step-up transformer. That's what I use in my single-pup J bass because I really like the single-coil sound and I haven't heard any hum-cancelling pickups that are close enough.

Lace also makes the alumitones which I think use the same transformer technology as the TranSensors.

Yes, they are both based on the same technology, and both of those were invited and patented by Villen Khanagov, aka William Villex.

So we probably don't have to guess how Villex pickups work.

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

Sadowsky single coils and hum cancelling pickups do sound different. The singles have less sparkle and a tighter low end. You can get very close to the Sadowsky single coil sound by using a 500k volume pot with the hum cancelling pick ups. Having used both in my Sadowsky bass, the singles sounded better. I favor the bridge pick up ever so slightly, and I mean very little! The hum is almost non existent, and it adds a nice burp to the tone. Too much and it's going to hum. There is no way to get around that. As a side note, I installed a Sadowsky pre in another jazz style instrument. After trying both styles, the hum cancelling sounded better in that bass.

 

[narud]

I think plenty of them do. The only difference between the two is that hum canceling pickups will often have a darker tone with more midrange.

But there is nothing intrinsically different about a single coil pickup than a double coil pickup. They can be made to sound the same. The rest is people's conceptions. In a blind test people wouldn't know.

If you already have your mind made up that none of them capture some quality, then you won't try them and won't dial in that tone.

youve made up your mind in that they capture the same quality in the same way mine is made up that they dont.

 

[narud]

I actually do like the single coil sound. That said, I don't like it enough that I'd be willing to deal with the hum. I definitely won't say that there's no difference or that the difference is totally insignificant because that would be false but I really do think that some humcanceling pups get really close to the single coil sound.

I actually went to a local music store and got my hands on a 2010 Fender American Deluxe Jazz. Just for the heck of it I decided to grab a two American Standard Jazzes that I liked and compare them all with the Deluxe in passive mode and the tone wide open on all three. They all sounded very similar. Again, there were differences but in this case, they weren't very pronounced at all. I know that's an anecdotal example but it's about all I've got.

well our ears are way different. ive done the same and both my wife and i didnt like the american deluxes with the humcancelling pickups. she knew that wasnt the sound

 

[Mike M.]

I've got my cake and I'm eating it too. Got a set of Seymour Duncan Antiquity II's in my Jazz bass. The tech I went to did a good and proper shield job and I'm telling it again....I've got NO hum at all. Even with either pickup turned all the way down, hands off the strings and getting right up to the amp, my bass gives off no unwanted noise.

I've read of guys here who tried these pickups and loved them but yanked them out due to the noise.

What noise?

 

[SGD Lutherie]

youve made up your mind in that they capture the same quality in the same way mine is made up that they dont.

Actually I haven't. I even said I wasn't trying to sound like single coils. I just make them so they sound pleasing to me. I'm not trying to get a certain tone from another bass, with the exception of the neck wide aperture neo, which was modeled to sound like a P bass, because I like that tone.

I don't make vintage reproductions, so I have no interest in trying to make something that sounds like a "70s" Jazz, which generally never does, and few people know what that actually sounds like anyway. Plus it's a crutch that people think they need that. I could start doing an A/B comparison with a certain pickup so I can match the tone, but that was not my intension. There's already a boat load of single coil Jazz pickups on the market, and there's only so many ways to make them.

However, I have just shown that my humbuckers do sound like single coils, and single coils have many different tones. All those recordings were pretty much flat.

If you think they don't sound like single coils, give some examples how your bass sounds so much different. With a little EQ they would match right up.

Pickups just sense the strings. One is not going to give you something that isn't there, but some pickups will enhance certain frequencies and attenuate others. It's like built in EQ.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I've got my cake and I'm eating it too. Got a set of Seymour Duncan Antiquity II's in my Jazz bass. The tech I went to did a good and proper shield job and I'm telling it again....I've got NO hum at all. Even with either pickup turned all the way down, hands off the strings and getting right up to the amp, my bass gives off no unwanted noise.

I've read of guys here who tried these pickups and loved them but yanked them out due to the noise.

What noise?

Well shielding does not get rid of hum. It gets rid of buzz. Hum is magnetic field noise, and the higher pitched buzz is electrical field noise. Shielding only helps with electrical field noise. Hum cancelation only helps with magnetic field noise.

Go into club with noisy power lines and light dimmers, and you will hear noise. It's physics, and there's no getting around it.

 

[narud]

Actually I haven't. I even said I wasn't trying to sound like single coils. I just make them so they sound pleasing to me. I'm not trying to get a certain tone from another bass, with the exception of the neck wide aperture neo, which was modeled to sound like a P bass, because I like that tone.

I don't make vintage reproductions, so I have no interest in trying to make something that sounds like a "70s" Jazz, which generally never does, and few people know what that actually sounds like anyway. Plus it's a crutch that people think they need that. I could start doing an A/B comparison with a certain pickup so I can match the tone, but that was not my intension. There's already a boat load of single coil Jazz pickups on the market, and there's only so many ways to make them.

However, I have just shown that my humbuckers do sound like single coils, and single coils have many different tones. All those recordings were pretty much flat.

If you think they don't sound like single coils, give some examples how your bass sounds so much different. With a little EQ they would match right up.

Pickups just sense the strings. One is not going to give you something that isn't there, but some pickups will enhance certain frequencies and attenuate others. It's like built in EQ.

no, youve shown you can make a good sounding pickup. a narrow aperture doesnt mean it sounds like a single coil. theres one jazz bass clip up there and it sounds like the stereotypical juiced up bright (in the upper highs) humcancelling jazz bass pickup sound.

 

[Nedmundo]

well our ears are way different. ive done the same and both my wife and i didnt like the american deluxes with the humcancelling pickups. she knew that wasnt the sound

I'm with Narud on new American Deluxe v. American Standard, and I've done the A/B also. To me, the N3 pickups in the new American Deluxe didn't sound as good as the single coils in the Standard, and the difference was readily apparent. The Deluxe still sounds like a good J-bass, but IMO those N3 pickups don't measure up to the better noiseless options (Fralin, Nordstrand, etc.). I've done the A/B thing with my noiseless Fralins against single coils several times, and it's usually difficult for me to hear the difference. Not so with the N3.

Oddly enough, I like the N3 Strat pickups. They actually have some of the "bite" I need from a Strat pickup. In the previous American Deluxe generation, I didn't like the SCN pickups in the Strats, but did like them in the Jazz basses. Go figure.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

no, youve shown you can make a good sounding pickup. a narrow aperture doesnt mean it sounds like a single coil. theres one jazz bass clip up there and it sounds like the stereotypical juiced up bright (in the upper highs) humcancelling jazz bass pickup sound.

Well real Jazz pickups are very bright. That's the tone of a real Jazz bass, and why Leo designed those pickups in comparison to the P bass. Leo liked bright tones, and the MM and G&L got even brighter. Some say he was loosing his hearing!

I did nothing to hype up the treble, and that was just the natural sound of the strings. I just made a pickup with an extended top end. That would have been the Sidewinder which has more top end than the Jazzbucker. It's a simple matter to EQ the bass or turn the tone knob down a bit. You can take it away, but you can add what's not there.

I have to make something so players can get a wide range of tones. I'm also trying to offer something different. Makes no sense doing what everyone else is doing.

For a darker tone you have something like this:

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Then the same pickups can sound like this:

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Compare that to the clips posted below.

Also, I agree that the Fender noise canceling pickups are not very good, and I'm also not a big fan of any of their recent factory pickups. Aftermarket is the way to go.

Heres some vintage examples from recordings. These are all real vintage Jazz basses with what ever single coils they came with.

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[KJung]

I would never have a hum cancelling J pickup in a J bass. I've never heard an HC that sounds like a true SC.

Also, I am very sensitive to hum and noise. IMO and IME, most hum problems with single coils are user error. You can use a blend or volume-volume control so that you get 90%+ of the solo'd pickup tone while still allowing the other pickup to hum cancel.

The only time you will get a hum or noise issue is if you 100% favor one pickup over the other. There is really no reason to ever do that if you spend a little time mastering that 'magical sweet spot' in the blend or vol/vol setting that gets you almost all the way to that solo sound and still maintains the vast majority of cancelling from the other pickup.

If anyone is interested, I demonstrate this about half-way through my Sadowsky preamp demonstration on my Youtube channel (my Sadowsky J as Seymour Duncan built Sadowsky singles).

IMO and a ton of IME on this one!


Edit: Of course, many would say they would never have a buffered pickup (i.e., an on-board active preamp) in a J Bass, so this is all personal preference. Some HC's sound great, they just don't sound like SC's. My main point is that players should not eliminate SC's from consideration due to 'hum'.... there are easy ways around that, and if you mostly play with both pickups dimed, it is literally a zero issue.

 

[KJung]

no, youve shown you can make a good sounding pickup. a narrow aperture doesnt mean it sounds like a single coil. theres one jazz bass clip up there and it sounds like the stereotypical juiced up bright (in the upper highs) humcancelling jazz bass pickup sound.

Just saying hello! Hope you are well! Nice to see you on the site. I took a few months rest for a while also.

+1 to your posts on this

 

[narud]

Well real Jazz pickups are very bright. That's the tone of a real Jazz bass, and why Leo designed those pickups in comparison to the P bass. Leo liked bright tones, and the MM and G&L got even brighter. Some say he was loosing his hearing!

I did nothing to hype up the treble, and that was just the natural sound of the strings. I just made a pickup with an extended top end. That would have been the Sidewinder which has more top end than the Jazzbucker. It's a simple matter to EQ the bass or turn the tone knob down a bit. You can take it away, but you can add what's not there.

I have to make something so players can get a wide range of tones. I'm also trying to offer something different. Makes no sense doing what everyone else is doing.

For a darker tone you have something like this:

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Then the same pickups can sound like this:

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Compare that to the clips posted below.

Also, I agree that the Fender noise canceling pickups are not very good, and I'm also not a big fan of any of their recent factory pickups. Aftermarket is the way to go.

Heres some vintage examples from recordings. These are all real vintage Jazz basses with what ever single coils they came with.

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theyre bright, but they dont have that juiced, spongy response up top humcancelling pickups have. doesnt matter that you didnt do anything to hype the treble. thats the tone those pickups have. ive got some great old fenders and have owned and played many more so i know what a fender sounds like, but thanks for the clips

i also think fenders factory pickups are just fine. humcancelling or single coil. i had some samarium cobalt noiseless pups and they sounded like a good humcancelling pickup. the original p is one of the better sounding p pickups out there and a bargain. the original j's are custom shop 60's are lower wind like an old pickup and a great alternative to have vs the aftermarket j pickups.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Also, I am very sensitive to hum and noise. IMO and IME, most hum problems with single coils are user error. You can use a blend or volume-volume control so that you get 90%+ of the solo'd pickup tone while still allowing the other pickup to hum cancel.

The only time you will get a hum or noise issue is if you 100% favor one pickup over the other. There is really no reason to ever do that if you spend a little time mastering that 'magical sweet spot' in the blend or vol/vol setting that gets you almost all the way to that solo sound and still maintains the vast majority of cancelling from the other pickup.

That's kind of limiting yourself, isn't it? You have two pickups, but you can't solo one of them? I use my neck pickup soloed all the time. It's a cool tone, and I wouldn't want to have both pickups on for every song. Likewise, a soloed bridge pickup can be a thing of beauty.

That's not user error either. The bass was designed to allow you to use the pickups soloed. But at the time there were no hum canceling pickups in common use.

An example of this is the Fender Strat. It was intend to only allow the use of one pickup at a time. Then people figured out they could get the switch to stick between setting and get two pickups, and then pickup makers started winding the middle pickup to hum cancel.

 

[narud]

Just saying hello! Hope you are well! Nice to see you on the site. I took a few months rest for a while also.

+1 to your posts on this

ken! hope the relocation went easy. im still going to try and stay away for the most part