Humcancelling or Single Coil Jazz Pick-ups & Why

[SGD Lutherie]

hum be damned!!! can you imagine hendrix, or srv swapping out pickups so they could solo the neck pickup?

Hendrix would have if they were available. SRV did a lot of work to get rid of hum by trying to wrap the pickups in foil and stuff.

And those Dimarzio Virtual Vintage pickups can nail that Hexdrix or SRV tone very easily.

On the other hand, look at Danny Gatton.

And then Hendrix did use other guitar too.... with humbuckers.

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[KJung]

Fun thread. I know we went OT on the OP, but he seemed to have his answer prior to the topic jig and jag.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

And just to be clear, I know quite a few guys that PREFER HC pickups. It isn't a 'good or bad' thing, they are just, again, in my experience, different, and different enough for most to have a strong preference.

+1 and choice is a good thing!

I'm certainly not trying to sell people on the idea that they shouldn't use single coils. I don't use them if I can help it, but that's me.

I have wound single coil Jazz pickups and the customers were very happy with them.

I just follow Bill Lawrence's First Commandment: "Thy Pickups Shall Not Hum."

 

[KJung]

+1 and choice is a good thing!

I'm certainly not trying to sell people on the idea that they shouldn't use single coils. I don't use them if I can help it, but that's me.

I have wound single coil Jazz pickups and the customers were very happy with them.

I just follow Bill Lawrence's First Commandment: "Thy Pickups Shall Not Hum."

And, the HC pickups that I thought came the closest of any I've ever heard to the 'nature of single coil J pickup tone' were the Celinder J pickups, which I think were made by Bill Lawrence (although I could be remembering wrong... I get names mixed up). GREAT HC pickups!

PS Strange to see Hendrix with a Les Paul!

 

[markanini]

EDIT: Disregard

 

[Craig_S]

There are lots of good sounding noise canceling Jazz pickups. If they don't sound exactly like a single coil, who cares?

Me. Make me a set of hum cancelling pickups that sound as good as my Fralin singles and I'll buy them.

 

[lowendfriend]

I voted humcancelling....why? I hate hum!!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Me. Make me a set of hum cancelling pickups that sound as good as my Fralin singles and I'll buy them.

Right, but my point is, and this is just me I guess, why does your jazz bass have to sound a certain way? I own a bunch of guitars and basses. I have a Strat style Charvel, I tele style guitar I built, a '72 Fender Mustang guitar, 2 '72 Ric 4001s, etc.

The Charvel has 2 pickups, a Lace Sensor someone gave me at the neck, and a humbucker I wound at the bridge. The Tele has Bill Lawrence L-250s and a dual rail humbucker at the bridge. The Mustang has L-250s. My Rics had Hi-A and a gibson mudbucker, and even a DiMarzio Model P...

My point is these are tools to express yourself. I didn't care if my Ric didn't sound exactly like Chris Squire or Paul McCartney because I was trying to sound like me, and not them.

So I never understand why someone would insist that their Jazz bass should sound exactly like everyone else's Jazz bass. There is no right or wrong tone from an instrument. The way it sounds is the way you want it to sound. This is why the after market pickup scene started; people wanted their Fenders or Gibsons to sound different. Now everyone wants stock or vintage tones and wants to blend in.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't get it.

 

[KJung]

Right, but my point is, and this is just me I guess, why does your jazz bass have to sound a certain way? I own a bunch of guitars and basses. I have a Strat style Charvel, I tele style guitar I built, a '72 Fender Mustang guitar, 2 '72 Ric 4001s, etc.

The Charvel has 2 pickups, a Lace Sensor someone gave me at the neck, and a humbucker I wound at the bridge. The Tele has Bill Lawrence L-250s and a dual rail humbucker at the bridge. The Mustang has L-250s. My Rics had Hi-A and a gibson mudbucker, and even a DiMarzio Model P...

My point is these are tools to express yourself. I didn't care if my Ric didn't sound exactly like Chris Squire or Paul McCartney because I was trying to sound like me, and not them.

So I never understand why someone would insist that their Jazz bass should sound exactly like everyone else's Jazz bass. There is no right or wrong tone from an instrument. The way it sounds is the way you want it to sound. This is why the after market pickup scene started; people wanted their Fenders or Gibsons to sound different. Now everyone wants stock or vintage tones and wants to blend in.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't get it.

I think you are missing the point a bit. There are plenty of variations in tone across all the single coil pickups, just like across the HC pickups. My jazz style instruments all sound quite different, and they all have single coils, since there is something about the nature of the response, the more organic treble, etc. that seems to be inherent in a single coil spec.

It isn't that people want 'all J Basses' to sound the same, it is just that some of us actually want a J Bass to kind of sound like a J Bass.

I lived throught the era where people went out of their way to make a J Bass NOT sound like a J bass (the HI-A/Bartolini thing that was all the craze back in the day). That is legitimate also. For example, Carey Nordstrand makes two lines of 'J type' instruments... the modern VJ's, with various 'fat' HC, stacked, split coils, or 'unusually wound' single coil soap bars and a more modern neck profile, and the classic VJ's with one piece neck, and either 'period correct' or more modern single coil J's (of course, he will put his very nice HC's in those also).

 

[SGD Lutherie]

It isn't that people want 'all J Basses' to sound the same, it is just that some of us actually want a J Bass to kind of sound like a J Bass.

Right, but which J bass? You just said they all sound different. And many of the HC pickups also sound like one of those J basses. Maybe not like all of them, but they get in there.

regarding your P/J comment earlier...

I lived throught the era where people went out of their way to make a J Bass NOT sound like a J bass (the HI-A/Bartolini thing that was all the craze back in the day). That is legitimate also.

I'm guessing we are close in age, since you said "Hi-A" and not "Bartolini".

Well people thought a bass sounded like a bass. It was up to you to find your tone. it wasn't expected that you would use it right out of the box anymore than people would use the factory presets on effects or synths.

Then people got lazy.

For example, Carey Nordstrand makes two lines of 'J type' instruments... the modern VJ's, with various 'fat' HC, stacked, split coils, or 'unusually wound' single coil soap bars and a more modern neck profile, and the classic VJ's with one piece neck, and either 'period correct' or more modern single coil J's (of course, he will put his very nice HC's in those also).

Yes, Cary makes very nice pickups and basses. I avoided the whole "vintage" thing because it's a crowded market, and I make things I use myself. Theres always someone wanting something different, and that's where builders like me come in.

 

[carlos840]

I cant help but wonder what you guys do to get so much hum!?
Most of my basses have single coils and i probably had to deal with unbearable hum less than 5 times in ten years!
There was always some dodgy neon lighting to blame... Apart from that i never get any hum even soloing a pickup!

Why is it that everybody in the US complains about hum, is it something to do with 110v current vs 220?

 

[KJung]

Right, but which J bass? You just said they all sound different. And many of the HC pickups also sound like one of those J basses. Maybe not like all of them, but they get in there.


I'm guessing we are close in age, since you said "Hi-A" and not "Bartolini".

Well people thought a bass sounded like a bass. It was up to you to find your tone. it wasn't expected that you would use it right out of the box anymore than people would use the factory presets on effects or synths.

Then people got lazy.



Yes, Cary makes very nice pickups and basses. I avoided the whole "vintage" thing because it's a crowded market, and I make things I use myself. Theres always someone wanting something different, and that's where builders like me come in.

I'm circling 55!

+1 I guess it is hard to communicate. I guess I just like the 'class' of pickups that are called single coil J's. They do all seem to sound different than any HC, but yet there are different flavors within that genre. Again, hard to describe.

Kind of like 'I like four door cars' and you telling me you can make a two door car that I would like. There are MANY varieties of four door cars I can choose from and don't feel limited at all by that. BUT, they all have that key attribute in common, called 'four doors', and NO two door car will satisfy that itch.

Sorry for the car analogy, but in this case, I think it makes sense. Wanting a single coil in a J bass is not limiting at all. My Sadowsky with Seyour Duncan 'Sadowsky' singles and my Alleva-Coppolo with Jimmy's singles sound quite different, but they both have that key 'single coil' sort of response and 'general tonality and feel'.

Not limiting at all, and IMO in no way 'getting lazy'. Just the opposite. The amazing amplification and speakers that we all have now GREATLY uncover any sort of flaw in instrument and/or technique. If anything, basses have MUCH more variety in tone, even within the J Bass category.

Again, not saying everyone should use a single coil, since the HC tone category and the general tonality of a bit wider, cleaner and more sparkle up top that an HC spec can give you can be a great thing. But, per the above post, not choosing a single coil because you think they hum is a BAD mistake, and based on a lack of understanding (i.e., single coils are no more noisy than HC's with both pickups dimed, AND not any noisier with one pickup or the other favored versus totally dimes and solo'd).

 

[acebase62]

I cant help but wonder what you guys do to get so much hum!?
Most of my basses have single coils and i probably had to deal with unbearable hum less than 5 times in ten years!
There was always some dodgy neon lighting to blame... Apart from that i never get any hum even soloing a pickup!

Why is it that everybody in the US complains about hum, is it something to do with 110v current vs 220?

I've played in a couple places (including a church for 6 years) on a regular basis that had serious electrical issues. The single coil hum from the J on the PJ which I played at the time was real bad and caused complaints from the sound guys. Other places no hum at all.

I finally said forget it, and made the switch. When I started using a JJ, I chose hum cancelling to avoid the same problem at these places. I love the various sounds of single coil J pickups, but IME, there are of some real close or overlapping sounds with some hum cancelling J pickups. Especially with different instruments, different strings, different eq settings, different amps, different rooms, different players, etc.....

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I'm circling 55!

Ah, you are a year older! I have 54 about to be knocking on my door....

 

[walterw]

good, good stuff!

A lot of advances have taken place for hum canceling single coils for Strats and Teles. First Chris Kinman came up with his noise free single coil technology, which he patented, and then those were pretty much copied by DiMarzio, with their Virtual Vintage line, and the new Duncan Classic Stack Plus STK-S4. These are all stacks, but use a different technology for the dummy coil, and they really sound exactly like single coils.

well, closer than anything else anyway (except the suhr/ilich system, which sounds just a bit more "real" but is not quite as perfectly hum-canceling).

do you know the story with kinman vs. dimarzio on the patents of the "virtual vintage" idea?

i understand it to be a bottom coil that's only 1 or 2kΩ or so (thus causing little tone loss) that is boosted with an iron core to increase its "anti-hum" enough to do the job.

i think john suhr might have been involved too, but apparently there was some ugliness and everyone's keeping mum.

Another recent trend is the rediscovery of the sidewinder type of humbucker. Bill Lawrence had made these for years with his L-250 Strat size pickups...

those old lawrence strat pickups with the thin blade down the center were sidewinders?

i recall them being not that powerful, so i assumed they were regular stacks.

 

[danomite64]

So I never understand why someone would insist that their Jazz bass should sound exactly like everyone else's Jazz bass.

I agree. As acebase62 already mentioned, a Quarter Pounder isn't the same as a stock Jazz pickup. I also put an EMG 2-band preamp in my Jazzes. My pickup/preamp choices were somewhat influenced by the tone of my old Stingray and Sabre basses; I did try other pickups and preamps, the EMG & QP's just have 'that' sound for me. And, like carlos840, I haven't had any issue with audible hum.

 

[12bass]

Single coils belong in a Jazz for no other reason than because that's what the Good Lord* intended.

*Leo Fender

 

[SGD Lutherie]

good, good stuff!

well, closer than anything else anyway (except the suhr/ilich system, which sounds just a bit more "real" but is not quite as perfectly hum-canceling).

I haven't heard the Suhr/Ilitch in person, but I was very impressed with the Virtual Vintage pickups.

do you know the story with kinman vs. dimarzio on the patents of the "virtual vintage" idea?

My understanding is that when Kinman wanted to fight DiMario's patent application, he had to come to New York, which he couldn't afford to do.

Now DiMarzio's original stacked pickup was patented in '84 (4442749). Kinman cites that as prior art, and got his first patent in '97 (5668520). DiMarzio's patent in question (5908998) is from '99 however. That was was filed in Feb '97. Kinman's was filed in March '96, a year ahead of DiMarzio.

i understand it to be a bottom coil that's only 1 or 2kΩ or so (thus causing little tone loss) that is boosted with an iron core to increase its "anti-hum" enough to do the job.

You mean for the Kinman? I measured the DiMarzio Virtual Vintage Solo Pro (bridge position), and the top coil was 8.53k and the bottom was 2.45k. They had a magnetic shield between the two, and the bottom coil had 10 steel slugs to increase the inductance.

The bottom coil is also wound with heavier gauge wire than the top.

those old lawrence strat pickups with the thin blade down the center were sidewinders?

i recall them being not that powerful, so i assumed they were regular stacks.

Yes, they are sidewinders. The original ones sound great. The Bill Lawrence USA version are thin sounding and microphonic.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Single coils belong in a Jazz for no other reason than because that's what the Good Lord* intended.

*Leo Fender

Later on the Good Lord changed his mind and updated the Jazz bass to this:

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See, evolution is real.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

My pickup/preamp choices were somewhat influenced by the tone of my old Stingray and Sabre basses...

And both have humbuckers. And boy, the QPs are about as far from the MM pickups as you can get. The MMs are very under wound and the QPs are very over wound.

On a side note, I just installed one of my 2-band preamps into my '87 Ibanez with my Neo Jazzbuckers, and was surprised how easily I could get Tony Levin's MM tone by cranking the bass and treble controls up and using both pickups.

So even without the MM pickups, you can get a lot of that tone with the Stingray preamp.

I like the EMG BTC preamps BTW. I used them in my basses since the mid 90s.

I sold my last one to the guy who owns the white Fender P/J bass I posted a photo of above.