The whole band is responsible for the feel of the song, not any one player. Bass player's job is traditionally to emphasize the downbeat, banjo or guitar should emphasize the backbeat if there's no drummer around to do it.
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Double Bass Hurt Feelings and a Kick in the Butt
- Thread starter Michael F Clef
- Start date
Sometimes people say things like that just to gaslight. I don't even know that they know they are doing it. From a sonic perspective, there is something that drums add that bass cannot. I don't think it was you.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that anyone playing jazz or related music should be able to play just fine without a drummer. Obviously the music will be different (and if the drummer isn't great, better), and people will have to adapt, but it sounds like some of your bandmates are used to leaning heavily on the timekeeping and rhythmic feel of the drummer without taking responsilbity for it themselves. IMO it's not the job of the bass to step in and provide this crutch, but of course as bass players we all shoulder a fair amount of the music's "pulse" so that's maybe why you feel it was aimed at you.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Everyone is responsible for the time. The majority of my gigs in the past 12+ years have been trio or duo gigs without drums, in a jazz setting, so I am very used to being the 'rock' in most settings. That said, when it's my time to solo and I know I'm keeping the time where it should be, I also expect my bandmates to be right there with me and not leave me hanging. When you get really comfy without drums and you add a drummer.... it's EASY. But you have to put in the time to learn how the music sounds and feels without drums first. It sounds like the rest of your bandmates need to get comfortable with their time, so they aren't leaning on you OR the drums for it. Metronomes and drum machines are for everyone, not just rhythm section instruments.
If one of the brass players is the one who made the statement, it may be a hearing thing. They've got a horn up against their face vibrating their whole head and making a lot of sound. They may only be able to reliably hear the time from drums and can't hear you well enough in the drums' absence.
I know two horn players who eventually switched instruments because of the whole head vibrational thing. One was a sax player who played in a big band section with the trombones right behind and couldn't deal with all that sound blasting the back of his head.
I know two horn players who eventually switched instruments because of the whole head vibrational thing. One was a sax player who played in a big band section with the trombones right behind and couldn't deal with all that sound blasting the back of his head.
First, i wouldn't take their comments as a reflection on you. I make the same comment sometimes even as the bass player in the group. Having a great drummer is always a blessing for everyone on stage, even if technically you shouldn't need one.
As for your question, i would practice with a metronome more until you are swinging with the metronome with no one else in the room. Build the confidence to own the groove of the band and sound like you are commanding the time. Outside of even half notes in the pocket, it is also OK to do similar patterns to what you would hear from a ride cymbal when appropriate for the tune.
As for your banjo buddy, they should be also commanding good time and owning the groove to the point where they don't even need you as a bass player. To me that means playing swinging quarter notes or attacks on 2 & 4 as you suggested.
Aside from a drum machine, there's nothing else you could have brought to the gig.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
This is it. When I play in a duo setting with any instrumentalist it is immediately clear if the other musician has good time. I CAN play in a way that makes the time very clear; say straight quarter notes and roots on beat one. Or, I can play all around it and see how the other musician responds. If the other musician has great time, we may each go off on a little side jaunt and seemingly leave the other adrift, but eventually come right back in perfect time. We may go all night without ever turning it around.
Conversely, if the other musician has bad time, it may get turned around immediately. Do I adapt or be one beat off for a full chorus or forever? Hey, are you even listening? It can be a real drag.
Of course, the original question was about playing a particular style of music and the roles of each instrumentalist may be different. However, we all must have good time, listen and make music together.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Everyone's role has to change a little bit when one 'anchor' instrument is missing - but the role that never changes is the necessity of having good time. In my duo, my sax player will often play background parts behind my solo, with small rhythmic hints/hits that fill the space nicely. I do the same for him, even with 'broken' time behind his solo. As long as the time is there, the roles can be switched up creatively.
It all depends on the quality of the rest of the players, no matter the instrumentation. Players with good time and listening skills will be great with or without drums or any other particular instrument. Playing with those with lesser skills, especially drummers, can make for more of a struggle.
Yep, I would interpret as "the guy missed the sound of drums", nothing to do with anybody else...
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Or, 'the guy realized he depends too much on the drums to prop up his sense of time'. That's how I'd interpret it.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main."
Playing with players who have Good Time is the best remedy for improving YOUR TIME.
And, conversely... well, you know...
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thx.
Playing with players who have Good Time is the best remedy for improving YOUR TIME.
And, conversely... well, you know...
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thx.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
"It takes a really good drummer to be better than no drummer at all." Chet Baker
Sometimes you have to adapt; it's not a sin to play in four in trad jazz. It is, however, a sin to tell a lie.
In two, if the backbeats aren't there, you can just cut the notes off so playing quarters with quarter rests instead of half notes. This is not real explicit but I find sometimes it helps.
In two, if the backbeats aren't there, you can just cut the notes off so playing quarters with quarter rests instead of half notes. This is not real explicit but I find sometimes it helps.
I got together with a guitarist friend recently to play just for fun. It's frankly something that rarely happens since there's usually some sort of commitment involved in the playing I do. We just played jazz tunes with no plan or other discussion- no drums, no horns, no keys, no bs. It was bliss. 
From my experience, which was a lot last year, not having the drummer there is difficult for players with not so great time. I played with a piano player with iffy swing time and to rein them in was difficult and would throw the whole band out. When we had our drummer, they were able to keep it together and actually commented how hard it was to hear the beat with out a drummer playing. At one point in a rehearsal, I played along with a metronome turned up and discovered only a couple other players in the group could keep time to it. I didn't feel bad about my playing, I just kindly said I couldn't play with them this year.
Unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant, I take this statement mean they prefer to play without drums.
as in- "We used to play without a drummer, now we usually have one and we prefer the days before the drummer."
