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I dont understand chord progression

#41
Sparkdog said:
Try ditching the scales, and instead, play the arpeggio of the chords in the song. Scales always sound mechanical, but the chord tones are much more musical and add some color to the music. If you don't know arpeggios, learn them. if you learn JUST the 7 chords for instance (major, minor, dominant, diminished) you can do so much with that and it will open new doors.
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Agree - generally structure around chord tones on strong(er) beats with scale notes connecting them together on weak(er) beats. Remember there although there are 4 beats in a bar of 4/4, the first and third are strong and 2 and 4 are weak. 1 is stronger than 3 with 2 and 4 of similar strength. In 3/4 there are three of which 1 is strong beat but in 6/8 there are only 2 beats. If your chords are changing on weak beats (imagine three beats of D, one of A then a bar of G) the harmony is in a kind of limbo - the bass might try to ignore the A and link the previous chord D with the next 'strong' G (e.g. (1) |D-D-D-C#|B-A-G-A| or (2) |D-D-A-Bb|B-A-G-E|) rather than following the changes directly. Remember that it is the bass that creates chord inversions. In the simple example I've given, you end up in (1) with the A and G chords in first inversion (3rd in the bass) with the bass continuing with a diatonic descent to G and in (2) there is a chromatic pull up into the G, again in third inversion then back stepwise to root position. Constantly playing the root in the bass keeps everything in root position regardless of the voicing of other instruments - this can sound crude.
Rhythm is as important - the bass can be as effective at sustaining pulse as it can at disrupting it. Consider suspension, anticipation or retardation (close relatives of suspension) by carrying a chord tone into the next chord before moving to a chord tone on a weaker beat or playing a chord tone from the next chord on the weak beat at the end of the preceding bar. Weak beats are your opportunity to create movement and tension - strong beats are where you resolve the tension, but you don't have to do so on every strong beat - try sustaining the tension through a whole round of changes until the key chord reappears. Also in the rhythmic arena, rests are as important as notes to creating strong rhythms - ending notes on time and playing rests to their full value are as much a part of playing bass as starting the notes on time.
Chromatics and half-tone movement in general are far more 'user friendly' to bass than they are to higher register voices. Simple decorations and ornaments such as strategically placed upper and lower mordents, acciaccatura and appoggiatura can bring even simple lines to life by creating harmonic and rhythmic interest without tramping over the structure or turning your bass line into a bad solo by running scales for the sake of it.
One other thing is register. Sometimes the same line an octave higher is all that is required to add energy. I'll show my age here and cite 'The Logical Song' by Supertramp. The bass part over the instrumental solo is pretty much the same as the bass line through the verses but played an octave higher, but it doesn't just jump the octave. There is a 2-bar segue from the verse into the break which is a diminished arpeggio (the chord is A°) followed by a chromatic push (A-C-Eb-Gb-Bb-B-C') into the solo. Simple but effective and totally logical!

As always, IMHO and YMMV.
 
#43
A lot of "intellectual" responses here but the one thing nobody seemed to hit on is how much of a difference it makes when sitting in the room with another person/persons and reacting to their input and ideas. I know we live in a world were we are all seperated by the internet and end up thinking we can just do it ourselves and for some that may be true - but for how long? What I'm hearing in the OP's responses is not that he doesn't know how to write bass lines but more that he's stuck and who doesn't get stuck slogging away locked up all by one's self? I certainly do. Turn off your computer and pack up your axe and head off to a jam and see if you can get some others to try out your progressions. I can guarantee you'll get out of your rut ASAP. Having to think/react on your feet will cure a lot of "stuckedness". Believe me, I've been there. Can't think of a time when it didn't at least help. Hope it does...
 
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#44
GiantsGiants said:
I understand how to write one but when I try to make a bassline for it I always struggle, when im by myself. Im fine playing with a guitarist. Could this be because im not a guitar player myself when i paly the parts its just not interesting so it sounds bad?
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The others are helping you with the main thing you are struggling with but you touch on something above that is very true. A perfectly fine bass line can be boring, boring, boring to play or listen to on its own. Don't get discouraged and don't give up on learning to write more melodic bass lines that can stand on their own but always keep in mind that if you can write bass lines that work in the context of a song you are doing fine, they do not have to stand on their own. This is one thing that you learn by playing in an orchestra or brass/woodwind school band. You pick an instrument, you start to learn to play it, and they put you in with the "third chair" section of your instrument to start out. And the stuff you play is mind numbingly boring. On its own. But when you play with the whole band you suddenly feel like you are really contributing something. Because you are! Always strive to move on to second chair and first chair but even when you get there do not be afraid to play a supporting role with bass lines that no one will remember but which nonetheless make a song really pop.
 
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#45
howlin said:
A lot of "intellectual" responses here but the one thing nobody seemed to hit on is how much of a difference it makes when sitting in the room with another person/persons and reacting to their input and ideas. I know we live in a world were we are all seperated by the internet and end up thinking we can just do it ourselves and for some that may be true - but for how long? What I'm hearing in the OP's responses is not that he doesn't know how to write bass lines but more that he's stuck and who doesn't get stuck slogging away locked up all by one's self? I certainly do. Turn off your computer and pack up your axe and head off to a jam and see if you can get some others to try out your progressions. I can guarantee you'll get out of your rut ASAP. Having to think/react on your feet will cure a lot of "stuckedness". Believe me, I've been there. Can't think of a time when it didn't at least help. Hope it does...
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I wholeheartedly agree with getting out there 'on the stand' at a jam session as a way of getting out of a rut - but in those situations you do need a back-catalogue of typical ideas, concepts and 'rudiments' to call on and the more diverse that is the better.

As for 'intellectual' responses, my posts are based on how I work - actually sitting down and analysing bass parts and how they work then explaining that using the language of music theory, not just spouting from books. Personally I find this type of analysis, combined with transcribing into standard notation to be a sure-fire way of not only committing lines I need to reproduce to memory but also internalising why some things work and others don't - which in turn helps the next time I have to 'make something up', e.g. at open sessions. When developing my own parts I typically use MuseScore to write the tune on one stave, mark that up with the changes then write out the bass part on another stave below, trying to get down at least some of what I played when jamming the tune out for the first few times. Being able to listen back to how the two mesh together really helps when developing a solid bass part - if I can't then 'hear' the chords/changes from just the bass and tune, or there are too many unresolved discords, then I've probably done something wrong. Of course this approach will not work for everyone.
 
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#46
I'm coming in late so this may have been mentioned. Let's take a few minutes and ask the question; what do chords do? Chords do several things. The one we often associate with is they provide movement or propel the song through a verse from (I) rest to tension (IV) to climax, (V7) to resolution and back to the tonic chord (I).

I-V-I is the short version.
I-IV-V7-I
I-vi-IV-V7-I
​
In a major key the I-IV & V chord contains all the notes in I's scale. So the I-IV-V will not only move the song along from rest, tension, climax and resolution, they will also harmonize the melody as long as the song stays in I's scale and or key. In a major key the I-IV-V chords provide the structure and movement. the minor chords provide color and flavor. The iii and vii are leading somewhere chords as in a turnaround iii-vii-ii-V7-I.

OK we talked about movement and how a chord is placed in a certain spot to move the tune along. We mentioned harmony. If the melody line and the bass line share notes we get harmony. Harmony is a good thing. How many shared notes are necessary? One shared note per measure is enough to bring harmony . Two are better and three are probably not necessary as one got harmony.

So what to do with chords. Trust the songwriter that placed the chords in specific places within the song and play the notes of that chord to the beat of the song.

Cmay7 chord coming up in the song. The R-3-5-7 scale degrees (notice it's the ole skip a note thing) of the C major scale will make a good safe bass line. All you really need is the root. A root, five is better and if you have room adding the 3 and or 7 just adds to the overall effect.

Octaves, roots and fives will play a lot of bass. Why? All chords have a root and the octave is just the root in another octave and most all chords have a five. So R-5-8-5 is kinda generic and will harmonize with major and minor chords. Once I'm beyond pounding out roots and 5's the ole R-5-8-5 or any combination of those notes, i.e. 8-5-R-5 can keep you in the groove.

How to flow that, get Ed Friedland's book Building Walking Bass Lines.
Country will play root fives with chromatic runs to the next chord. Chromatic runs are a no brainer. Target the next root note, miss it by three frets, then walk to it one fret at a time and land on it for the chord change. Yes you will have to work on your timing on when to leave early so you can hit the chord change dead on.

Most anything else can use this same walk, however, just miss the target by one fret is also a no brainer walk that works well. Miss the target above or below does not matter which.

To recap: Trust the song writer placed the chords in the correct spots then play the notes of the chord and use chromatic walks to flow into the next chord will get the job done.

Is there more? Sure, but, start here.
 
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#47
khutch said:
The others are helping you with the main thing you are struggling with but you touch on something above that is very true. A perfectly fine bass line can be boring, boring, boring to play or listen to on its own. Don't get discouraged and don't give up on learning to write more melodic bass lines that can stand on their own but always keep in mind that if you can write bass lines that work in the context of a song you are doing fine, they do not have to stand on their own. This is one thing that you learn by playing in an orchestra or brass/woodwind school band. You pick an instrument, you start to learn to play it, and they put you in with the "third chair" section of your instrument to start out. And the stuff you play is mind numbingly boring. On its own. But when you play with the whole band you suddenly feel like you are really contributing something. Because you are! Always strive to move on to second chair and first chair but even when you get there do not be afraid to play a supporting role with bass lines that no one will remember but which nonetheless make a song really pop.
Click to expand...

Absolutely this ^^ Some really great songs have bass parts that in isolation are crazy straight but when played well (as in more than just the right notes in the right order) serve the song perfectly - 'Psycho Killer' and 'Once in a Lifetime' by Talking Heads, 'Heroes' by David Bowie, 'Sitting on the Dock of the Bay' by Otis Redding and 'Turn it on Again' by Genesis might be starters for 10 - don't expect to get away with honing these parts at home for long without headphones!
 
#48
Chromatic movement works well moving from chord to chord.

Here is a visual aide that helps me:

Major: iii - vi - ii/IV - V/vii° -I - Any
Minor: III - VI - ii°/iv - V/vii° - i - Any

The idea is that your V is the closest resolve to your I/i, then your IV/iv, then your relative minor/major, etc.
I think knowing your modes helps but some people disagree and say they are more confusing than they are worth.
More importantly, chord progressions are for church piano and Hal Leonard: How to Play Blues Guitar CD's. Turn your amp up all the way, Open E like your in AC/DC, look the singer in the eyes while you fire-slap the drummer out from behind his kit, do a boss burnout in the rehearsal space on your Harley-Davidson, set something on fire, tell the rest of your band they're welcome, then day drink a case of beast ice while hanging loose on a gnarly wave to Okinawa where people will appreciate your genius.
 
#52
GiantsGiants said:
I understand how to write one but when I try to make a bassline for it I always struggle, when im by myself. Im fine playing with a guitarist. Could this be because im not a guitar player myself when i paly the parts its just not interesting so it sounds bad?

Also I can write a decent bassline for a two chord progression but when I get into the 3s and above I cant seem to make it interesting, I just end up playing root note. I know scales and stuff but cant make anything except bassline that just loop over again after 2 bars.

I know this is fine and has a use but how do I write longer bassline that still work in the context of a song?
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You are not alone but who cares about chords progression in the end? I personally play what's in my mind .. I like modal jazz in a way which quite simple in terms of harmony leaving a lot of space to improvisation but of course we are all different... there are in effect bass lines for song written for singers or guitarist with which is difficult to mate but this is generally because the song's style is not our style then we struggle to play with it... solution? Change song or musical genre it's simpler.
 
#54
Teacher - yep
Playing with others -yep
Scottsbasslessons - yep
Anything Ed F - yep
I agree with all of the suggestions in this thread.

I would add two of my own.

The iRealPro app gives you access to ready-made chord progressions, including standards. Great tool for learning to walk.

Record yourself. Use anything. An old phone or ipad or that cassette player you're holding on to. If you're fancy and can do something in the computer, that works too. Play along with a song, record it, and then listen to what you played. You will be impressed, embarrassed, frustrated, and proud all at the same time. Do this long enough and you will build confidence that you can play with what fits the song.
 
#55
As a general rule, look at the chord quality and use the appropriate scale for it. Major chord = Major scale, minor chord = Dorian mode, 7th chord = Mixolydian mode. In case you don't know, the last two modes are derived from the Major scale; the Dorian mode off the 2nd degree and the Mixolydian off the 5th degree. And don't forget to use chromatic notes, notes often played sequentially up or down but sometimes a half step above or below the target note. I.e approaching a C note from the B or C# note.

That was a simple recipe. Dealing with altered 7th chords (diminished scale, etc.), blues (b5, and other "blue notes") should be tackled after getting comfortable with the above.
 
#56
GiantsGiants said:
I use a lot of chord tones, but it all sounds boring to me. I dont understand how to get a bassline to kind of flow together and move around. like hit me with your rhythm stick.
Click to expand...

OK. The essence of the verse line is the quarter-note arpeggio. Root at the octave on '1', 5th on '2', 3rd on '3', and lowered 7th on '4'. Play the chord tones as 1/8th notes then fill the gaps with scale tones and chromatics and the line becomes almost recognisable. The verse line is essentially root on 1 and 3rd on 3 with passing notes. Its a tried and tested formula. Play each note twice as 1/16ths and you get close. But that line is so much more than just the notes. It is brought to life by Norman Watt-Roy's clear articulation, cheeky dynamics, full-value rests, relentless groove and highly-decorated fills. These are the things we should be practicing and studying - not scales and arpeggios which should be second nature. And, IMHO, therein lies the 'greatness' of all the greats...
 
#60
While you may know your scales that alone may be limiting you. Let me try to explain.

By thinking in terms of the 7 notes that make up most scales one tends to think of music in more linear terms and as a result they miss out on the larger picture. A chord progression is just that. CHORDS.

So I would suggest you start by looking at the chord structure of songs you find interesting, practice arpeggios and experiment with them.

Work on really basic 2 chord stuff then work your way to 3 or even (bordering on jazz here) 4 or more chords.

Always remember there is no rule that says you MUST stay in the root, or that you even need to hit it at all, just as long as it fits with what you're trying to say musically.
 

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