Well, I hope he will take care of himself and win over his addiction.
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I feel like a jerk
- Thread starter grimjim
- Start date
You are right to be concerned about doing the right thing. However, sometimes doing what is right is the hardest of all the options.
Imagine yourself standing on a bridge and enjoying the view. You were just on your way to visit your mom and paused for a moment to enjoy the scenery. Then a stranger walks up to you, hands you the end of a rope. You grab the rope out of reflex and immediately the stranger jumps off the bridge and dangles from the rope. He then calls up to you "I'll die if you let go of the rope!". Now what do you do? You don't know this person, you have other things to do, and you didn't ask to be holding somebody's rope. The stranger put themself in that situation and now you are responsible for their very life. I would let go of the rope. It's not my responsibility. What would you do?
Your guitar player has some very serious personal issues. Be there for him as a friend, but not as a business partner. He is out of the band until he gets his act together. Maybe that will be the motivation for him to take a good long look at where he is and decide that he wants to get better. Let go of the rope.
Imagine yourself standing on a bridge and enjoying the view. You were just on your way to visit your mom and paused for a moment to enjoy the scenery. Then a stranger walks up to you, hands you the end of a rope. You grab the rope out of reflex and immediately the stranger jumps off the bridge and dangles from the rope. He then calls up to you "I'll die if you let go of the rope!". Now what do you do? You don't know this person, you have other things to do, and you didn't ask to be holding somebody's rope. The stranger put themself in that situation and now you are responsible for their very life. I would let go of the rope. It's not my responsibility. What would you do?
Your guitar player has some very serious personal issues. Be there for him as a friend, but not as a business partner. He is out of the band until he gets his act together. Maybe that will be the motivation for him to take a good long look at where he is and decide that he wants to get better. Let go of the rope.
An alcoholic in a band situation? Say it ain't so.
Yeah, I know.
Active alcoholism can be triggered by depression, BTW, which sounds like that might be the case here.
But here's the thing. You can't effectively address the depression without first addressing the active alcoholism, and active alcoholics don't start getting better until they admit they've got no power over their disease. Problem is that kind of rigorous self honesty doesn't happen when family, friends and coworkers enable the self deceiving behavior to continue.
And just so you know, alcoholics are never cured; They can never drink again, even a couple beers.
I would recommend, if you find yourself in a situation where a band mate is an active alcoholic again, having a quiet conversation with him, letting him know how his behavior is affecting band production and goals, and then giving him a 30 day suspension & probation to go to daily AA meetings, get sponsored up, and text you meeting info, in-person or online, along with each day's meeting topic. If he takes you up on it, welcome him back after 30 days, but with the caveat that he continue daily AA meetings for 90 more days. After that, he'll probably WANT to continue the meetings.
If not, stick to your guns and let him go. Next alcoholic you deal with may be a low-bottom drunk, and may have to really hit it hard before taking that first step.
And yes, I'm an alcoholic and addict, and I had to find my low point before starting the long road to recovery. Lots of demolition work, lots of rebuilding and fence mending. The good news for me is it only takes one day at a time.
Yeah, I know.
Active alcoholism can be triggered by depression, BTW, which sounds like that might be the case here.
But here's the thing. You can't effectively address the depression without first addressing the active alcoholism, and active alcoholics don't start getting better until they admit they've got no power over their disease. Problem is that kind of rigorous self honesty doesn't happen when family, friends and coworkers enable the self deceiving behavior to continue.
And just so you know, alcoholics are never cured; They can never drink again, even a couple beers.
I would recommend, if you find yourself in a situation where a band mate is an active alcoholic again, having a quiet conversation with him, letting him know how his behavior is affecting band production and goals, and then giving him a 30 day suspension & probation to go to daily AA meetings, get sponsored up, and text you meeting info, in-person or online, along with each day's meeting topic. If he takes you up on it, welcome him back after 30 days, but with the caveat that he continue daily AA meetings for 90 more days. After that, he'll probably WANT to continue the meetings.
If not, stick to your guns and let him go. Next alcoholic you deal with may be a low-bottom drunk, and may have to really hit it hard before taking that first step.
And yes, I'm an alcoholic and addict, and I had to find my low point before starting the long road to recovery. Lots of demolition work, lots of rebuilding and fence mending. The good news for me is it only takes one day at a time.
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I’m not going into detail, but I was fired from my best band over 30 years ago. I literally cried about it: I mean, these were my friends too, and we had a good band, good hang, etc., etc.
That “ tragedy” was the best thing that ever happened to the rest of my life. It was the shock I needed to finally got serious about addressing some “ issues “ that I’d been avoiding, like your guitarist.
I’m still friends with 2 of the guys, but the third became a raging meth head and lost everything ( and he had a lot!)
and I haven’t seen him in years. I’m playing in two bands now and behaving like a responsible adult. I also retired with a non-music career intact, both of which probably would not have happened had these guys not had the guts to tell me : (1) I was fired and (2) why, in no uncertain terms.
Lots of folks make bad decisions due to substance abuse issues. It really doesn’t do anyone any good to continue making allowances for them. Your band has a job to do and he has decisions to make about his life.
My prayers are with your brother musician, but he has to make whatever decisions he needs to make: get sober and pick up the pieces or just keep on ( and he will, until he decides he wants help).
That “ tragedy” was the best thing that ever happened to the rest of my life. It was the shock I needed to finally got serious about addressing some “ issues “ that I’d been avoiding, like your guitarist.
I’m still friends with 2 of the guys, but the third became a raging meth head and lost everything ( and he had a lot!)
and I haven’t seen him in years. I’m playing in two bands now and behaving like a responsible adult. I also retired with a non-music career intact, both of which probably would not have happened had these guys not had the guts to tell me : (1) I was fired and (2) why, in no uncertain terms.
Lots of folks make bad decisions due to substance abuse issues. It really doesn’t do anyone any good to continue making allowances for them. Your band has a job to do and he has decisions to make about his life.
My prayers are with your brother musician, but he has to make whatever decisions he needs to make: get sober and pick up the pieces or just keep on ( and he will, until he decides he wants help).
Until you've seen friends or family with healthy, upbeat outlooks, good minds, families and careers deliberately choose alcohol or crack because it made them feel cooler, and then destroyed their lives - don't talk to me about "disease" please. Cancer is not a choice; that first bottle of vodka or puff on the pipe is. Being part of the "drug culture" as one friend put it can be very attractive when you're seeking an identity that makes you imagine you look cool. Yes, some people treat depression with intoxication, which is obviously a bad choice, but that's not every addict. Nuff said.
Yeah, your argument isn't uncommon.
From the Indiana University of Health: Link Removed.
The American Medical Association (AMA) classified alcoholism as a disease in 1956 and included addiction as a disease in 1987.
In 2011 the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) joined the AMA, defining addiction as a chronic brain disorder, not a behavior problem, or just the result of making bad choices.
In 2011 the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) joined the AMA, defining addiction as a chronic brain disorder, not a behavior problem, or just the result of making bad choices.
Yes, I've lost friends to cancer, my dad to parkinson's, and other family members to heart disease. Just because these are tragic diseases doesn't exclude addiction. I've also lost close friends and associates to addiction and alcoholism as recently as two months ago, and my grandfather whom I never met to alcoholism in his 40's.
There's a documented deterioration of neural pathways in how addicts and alcoholics receive and return signals triggered by dopamine in the brain that creates a level of craving not shared by normal people.
It's not just a simple matter of putting the bottle or needle down.
As a recovering addict and alcoholic, I can tell you without a doubt that I can never pickup a single drug or drink again without relapsing.
And whether I did this to myself simply as a result of my own character flaws and early bad choices or if I just came out of the chute this way, I'm definitely not wired right. I lost the power to choose to stop drinking/drugging decades ago. I only maintain a daily reprieve from addiction and alcoholism.
My story is not even remotely unique, BTW.
You want to continue to consider it a simple matter of choice, disregarding the AMA and ASAM? That's on you, though if you haven't personally been down this road, you'll understand if that doesn't carry much water with those in addiction medicine and those of us who have.
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In my experience dealing with it personally it's a little bit of both.
Not a choice - overwhelming neurological responses to a particular stimulus: shopping, alcohol, pogo sticks, whatever.
Choice - controlling one's environment with support system, active hobbies, how one chooses to spend their time and give their brain what it wants without going right to the problem behavior, etc.
Not a choice - overwhelming neurological responses to a particular stimulus: shopping, alcohol, pogo sticks, whatever.
Choice - controlling one's environment with support system, active hobbies, how one chooses to spend their time and give their brain what it wants without going right to the problem behavior, etc.
Thanks for sharing your story in order to counter some of the damaging and stigmatizing perspectives shared above.
I work in this field and can provide decades of research to verify your statements here, including the supporting data the AMA and ASAM relied on to arrive at those classifications.
In addition, I have seen family and friends "deliberately destroy their lives" as a result of neural impairment caused by chronic exposure to substances of misuse. They chose with damaged neural networks that are responsible for decision-making.
Finally, for anyone interested, it's scientifically accurate and appropriate to talk to anyone anywhere about the disease model of addiction with total confidence that data supports this concept: this is not a new perspective, it's not some woo-woo approach to treatment, and it saves lives. The data prove it. Keep calling addiction a choice and you perpetuate the stigma that leads to unnecessary pain and hardship, and in some cases, premature mortality.
Sorry to hear about your friends situation. I lost a friend a few years ago to alcoholism it was NOT pretty at all. At the end of the day he can only do it himself. Hope he gets better.
Just to precise that it’s insidious: I didn’t choose deliberately one day that I would become alcoholic and drink until my life would be a mess. However, like you said, you’re in control, not the case with cancer or other severe illness.
I also think that drinking a bit too much is something tolerated in our societies. It is, IMHO, as dangerous as any hard drugs (coke, heroin, fentanyl, etc…).
I had four phases in my substance abuse life:
- cannabis, from 16 to around 24.
- Alcohol entered the mix at 18-19.
- a long hiatus of 15 years with no pot and normal use of alcohol, from 24 to 39-40.
- the real drop with alcohol from 40 to 47 where I almost lost my girlfriend until my mother and father had a serious discussion with me. That was the last time I drank, more than three years ago.
Personal opinion again but I had no troubles quitting smoking pot (and I smoked way too much too…) compared to alcohol. Never lost control under cannabis neither and yes, I had moments where I smoked insane amounts of hash or pot…
I don’t pretend that it’s good to smoke too much, particularly when our brain is still in development in the 16 - 25 range.
These days, I don’t smoke cannabis anymore as it makes me paranoid and it’s not a good mix with anti depressant
A sequel of my younger days, unfortunately!Fortunately, never been tempted by any other hard drugs as I knew it would be a deadly spiral for me.
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.These days, I don’t smoke cannabis anymore as it makes me paranoid and it’s not a good mix with anti depressant
Canabis always made me paranoid, I think this is normal to have this effect with canabis.
That in itself is a relief of course, but what is greater is that he finally came to grips with the fact that he had a problem, whether it never dawned on him, or he was in denial. Don’t be sad anymore, he has potentially salvaged his problem. Here and now is what matters. But what is more important for him is to assess what might be a root cause for his self-medicating…issues or pain that need to be addressed. Granted, the pain killer in itself became the outward problem, but some people have that sort of turmoil buried deep, and the results/coping mechanisms are not always manifested in substance abuse. There are behavioral anomalies as well.
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Interesting that science has done such a marvellous job of telling us our behaviors aren't our fault, that we have somehow magically acquired a "disease" whose only vector is our behavior. Couldn't possibly be because rationalization has become our culture's substitute for responsibility, could it? Nah - no way would scientists follow trends that are advantageous to their careers, because all they care about is pure unalloyed truth. But now we risk entering the realm of politics since this notion is evinced in so many aspects of our culture, so enough of that...
I've been down that road and am in constant danger of getting back on it. So yeah, I know whose fault it was, full stop. No doctor has ever suggested to me that I have a disease that makes me want to do those things, bless their hearts for letting ME take responsibility. One of my aforementioned friends - smart, stable, good family, loving wife and kid, great career - who took up the crack pipe did it, plain and simple, because of suspended adolescence. He was tired of all that responsibility and during a band practice (bass player BTW) he went for the gusto. Within a short time he had hit the streets, drained his family's finances and left them destitute, then after he was pulled back to the world by relatives and cleaned up, left the family for good, grew his hair to his ass, and started playing ridiculous noise-as-music crap with an old drummer friend. The kind of gig only pretentious wankers and friends go to. But hey - he was happy, I guess.
So enough out of me. For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert, so believe whatever you wish and I'll do the same.
I've been down that road and am in constant danger of getting back on it. So yeah, I know whose fault it was, full stop. No doctor has ever suggested to me that I have a disease that makes me want to do those things, bless their hearts for letting ME take responsibility. One of my aforementioned friends - smart, stable, good family, loving wife and kid, great career - who took up the crack pipe did it, plain and simple, because of suspended adolescence. He was tired of all that responsibility and during a band practice (bass player BTW) he went for the gusto. Within a short time he had hit the streets, drained his family's finances and left them destitute, then after he was pulled back to the world by relatives and cleaned up, left the family for good, grew his hair to his ass, and started playing ridiculous noise-as-music crap with an old drummer friend. The kind of gig only pretentious wankers and friends go to. But hey - he was happy, I guess.
So enough out of me. For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert, so believe whatever you wish and I'll do the same.
You want to take your personal anectdotal experience, stack it against 60 years of empiricle evidence and consider it "equal", that's on you. Good luck with that, mate.
Nothing jerk about it. I'd have no qualms being the heavy and sacrificing a weak member to keep the project intact. Here's how I'd present it: "Hate to do this but we're putting you on waivers / IR for the interim. Now go get healthy (hand, ETOH, marriage, whatever) and come back".
That being said and IME, the chances of the guitarist coming back as stipulated are slim-to-none. Trust me on this.
Riis
That being said and IME, the chances of the guitarist coming back as stipulated are slim-to-none. Trust me on this.
Riis
1. Science has clearly done a terrible job explaining what factors go into human motivation and behavior.
2 To assert is that science is somehow compromised and exists simply as a scapegoat is a simple take that unfortunately has been weaponized and popularized by those in the "realm of politics".
3. The scientific method, when used effectively and when peer reviewed by others, is the best weapon we have against empirical bias. If there are other ways, the world would benefit immensely from you sharing them.
4. A more subtle issue with addiction is disconnecting responsibility from blame. Substance abuse has certainly been my responsibility to overcome but understanding why it happened and directing blame are very different things. Understanding why is useful. Finding fault is not. Disease simply exists.
5. Disease includes more than pathogens, abnormal cell/organ growth or structure. It is any disorder of structure or function in a human body system. That includes mental, emotional, behavioral as well as biological.
Anyway, I came here looking to find a bass player. I may return in another 5 years but I wont be watching this thread. Please,try to read this with an open mind and when that need to get defensive and reply strikes, let it go. My aim is to shed light not heat.
Adios,
