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I feel like a jerk

#81
Mister Magic said:
No way I would turn my back on a “depressed friend” like that. I disagree with the masses. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have been fired, but…

I saw nothing in the original post that mentions anything about offering him help. Nothing about you giving him a hug, telling him you are his friend. Did you even ask if he wanted help? Wanted to change? Offer to take him to AA? Offer him anything at all?

This cliché of ~”he has to help himself, you can’t force it” is an overused, feel good talking point. An awful lot of people only recover from events like this because they had friends and family that cared and persisted.

Just because you feel bad about the situation doesn’t mean he feels any compassion.

Did I miss something?
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We have been compassionate and very patient I believe. Remember, this has been going on for 8 years. We dealt with his calling off. When he split with his wife, we moved him to his new apartment. We were very encouraging during his brief sobriety. Once he started up again, I tried to counsel him as I had substance abuse problems when I was younger. There's no "I'm only gonna do it once in a while", you go right back. He was drinking 5ths of bourbon almost daily.
It hasn't been done yet. I'm sure we'll discuss it more at practice this week. Thanks for the reply, it does give me things to think about.
 
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#83
kevindahl said:
Alcoholism = disease. Would you be so callous if he had cancer?

It's not okay but you don't sound very supportive in your printed words.
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Sorry. My mother had a cancer and she survived with treatments and medicine and she didn’t chose to get it.

I’ve chosen to drink and the remedy, as hard it was, was to stop drinking…

Yes, he could (and probably is, nothing she’s the contrary) be supportive but his band mate has to help himself.
 
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#85
EddiePlaysBass said:
The two are so utterly incomparable, it baffles me that you'd even consider comparing them.
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I would agree. While I am firmly in the "alcoholism is a disease" camp, I believe it's more closely analogous to Diabetes.

One can live with Diabetes a good, long time as long as they take care of themselves and do nothing to inflame the disease.
 
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#87
kevindahl said:
They are diseases. It's more baffling you can't grasp that.
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I can attest it's a disease but like already said, the remedy is in the hands (or head) of the ill person. With help he/she has to get from entourage, specialists, etc...

Addictions are a disease, you are right.

I've said I have not chosen to drink but I know some people who can drink (smoke pot, sniff coke) too much one, two or three times a year and they won't need to do it regularly.

So, maybe a bit more complicated: context, a bit of genetic - maybe, life history, etc...

Anxiety, depression, mental ilness are also diseases.
 
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#88
Disease yes.

“Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks—drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.”

- "restless, irritable and discontented" - sober problem. need to drink to feel 'normal'
- "succumbed to the desire again" - mental part of disease...its ok it will be different this time.
- "craving develops" - this is key. body has changed and normal drinkers, ie non alcoholics. dont get this craving. Cant predict how much will be drunk after getting started.

Psychic change isnt so elusive. It happens after doing some work. Quite amazing actually.
nough preaching. Bottom line, until he is ready to change, nothing will change.
 
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#89
"Disease" is a bit of an abstraction; it's a paradigm for us to think about an issue with and to structure our responses to it. There are many kinds of things that we call "diseases" that really entail very different things actually tangibly happening in the person suffering from them. Cancer is not at all the same kind of thing as scurvy or a bacterial infection; a destructive mutation of the victims' own cells, vs. a breakdown of tissues due to deficiencies of key nutrients, vs. an invasion of a hostile organism. So addictions like alcoholism are "diseases" in the sense that we're better able to understand and treat them if we approach them through that paradigm than, say, if we treat them as crimes or as moral failings.

The thing about alcoholism and addiction is that they straddle the line between physical and mental ailments. There's a physical element, in that the body of the victim has been programmed to crave and even need (on pain of withdrawal) the substance it's addicted to. But there are also cognitive and behavioral components, ways the addiction makes the victim think and act. The treatment for an alcoholic is not the same as the treatment for someone with an infection. So while it's not useful to treat an alcoholic as a criminal to be punished or shunned for his wickedness, nevertheless essential components of any therapy for them entail addressing their thoughts and behaviors. Boundaries and consequences, like that you can't both drink and participate in a working band, can be a part of that; and that the pleasure of playing can be a reward for staying sober to counteract the addiction's efforts to release reward hormones for drinking.

What role band members play in any therapeutic process is going to depend on how close they are to the alcoholic and what kind of roles they're equipped to play. That's going to vary with the case; they might be deeply involved or they might really be best off staying out of the way.
 
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#90
I feel for you and for Mr. Glass for different reasons. Like others have mentioned, as long as he doesn't take control over the drinking issue, it is better for all that he doesn't get around the band anymore. You're a good person and Mr. Glass is not in a right place for now and he will need to find he's way back to the right path by himself unfortunately.
 
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#91
hrodbert696 said:
Boundaries and consequences, like that you can't both drink and participate in a working band, can be a part of that; and that the pleasure of playing can be a reward for staying sober to counteract the addiction's efforts to release reward hormones for drinking.

What role band members play in any therapeutic process is going to depend on how close they are to the alcoholic and what kind of roles they're equipped to play. That's going to vary with the case; they might be deeply involved or they might really be best off staying out of the way.
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Not quoted in entirety but it resumes really well the situation.

As pleasure to participate in a band, it was in my case my debut as a bass player. I’ve replaced alcohol addiction with bass and gear acquisition (not harmless if you have the money) and overall, the « addiction » (not really an addiction, more a mental way to focus on something useful) of playing music, one of the best « addiction » or better, therapy…
 
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#93
You can be a friend without being a band mate. This is always a a hazard of making the band a "family" feel. Don't get me wrong; I prefer to have a friendly band environment, but this is where it becomes a problem - when somebody's behavior is forcing a membership decision.

It won't be easy, but you can fire him and still be his friend. Keep in mind that he does need help beyond your scope in dealing with his disease, but you can still support him and try to help him find his way back to the light.
 
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#94
grimjim said:
This is gonna be kinda long...

We have a guitar player that we call Mr. Glass. One of the founding members. Over the years, about 8 now, he's regularly called off practice. To the point of, if we had four in a row, it was a good month. He suffered from migraines due to an auto accident, insomnia, etc.

We dealt with it. Most of his issues were due to no fault of his own but it did grate on us because if he called off the other guitar player didn't want to come either. He was notorious for lowering his volume and riding on the better player so he would stand out too much on his own. He ended up leaving on his own so one problem solved.

Back to Mr. Glass. He became a raging alcoholic on top of his health issues and entered rehab. He was doing great for a while. Then the "I'm only having a couple beers at practice" thing started. I tried talking to him about it as I had issues many years ago, but it went nowhere.

last December, we moved to a new rehearsal spot. The day of the move he slammed his hand in the freight elevator and broke his index finger on his fretting hand. Had pins in it and everything. He recovered from that and found out he had severe carpal tunnel. To the point where he couldn't play. So he had carpal tunnel surgery. He's still not back.

Then we find out through a common friend that while he was off his wife, they were separated, served him with divorce papers and he is now a raging alcoholic again. He complained to this friend about how crappy his life was "but at least I still have my band"

We're firing him and I feel kinda crappy about it, but we're not gonna go through all that again. I consider him a friend and he's obviously depressed, if he does something stupid....

We got a replacement for the second guitarist and he's just as good, if not better than Mr. Glass. We're really making progress and haven't had an unscheduled night off since he started three months ago.

I know a lot of you wouldn't have put up with half of what we did, but it is weighing on me.

What do you think?
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You put up with his issues for WAY too long. I’d have lost the guy years ago.
 
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#95
TheOxRocks said:
You put up with his issues for WAY too long. I’d have lost the guy years ago.
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With friends or family, it’s astonishing how some are forgiving! I thanks my GF and family for this!

Much harder also confronting a relative! However, it’s harder for the involved addicted person to quit, for the same exact reason… because loving people takes white gloves with you!

Until someone put you in face of a « deadline notice/advice », my parents in my case! Glowing bulb moment in my head this memorable day and I stopped drinking since!
 
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#97
About a dozen years ago, my friends son drank himself to death; he was in his twenties. Apparently, he had a bleeding ulcer and wouldn’t (or couldn’t) quit drinking. He was found dead in his apartment.

A person’s WILL to LIVE has to be stronger than their WILLINGNESS to DIE.

Unfortunately, my friends son couldn’t get there.
 
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#98
Bajo Clarkko said:
About a dozen years ago, my friends son drank himself to death; he was in his twenties. Apparently, he had a bleeding ulcer and wouldn’t (or couldn’t) quit drinking. He was found dead in his apartment.

A person’s WILL to LIVE has to be stronger than their WILLINGNESS to DIE.

Unfortunately, my friends son couldn’t get there.
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It’s quite complicated, kind of self-destruction behavior. Nobody lives and reacts the same. I have a long history of people dying young (or old but already « suspended death for years ») from alcohol addiction in my family. On the two sides, mother and father.
 
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#100
Well, the band problem is solved. He "stepped down" via FB messenger, on his own. I think he realized it was coming.

The drummer made a comment about him intentionally not coming back. He meant that he's been skipping therapy and postponed his surgery because of the drinking, but I'm sure he took it differently. Like he was faking it which is not the case. He did apologize for going too far with that comment but the damage was done.

I hope he takes it as a teachable moment and doesn't get resentful and bitter. Kind of a relief to have it done but sad about it at the same time.
 
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