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Double Bass I give up!

#21
I am much newer on double bass than bass guitar. My experience is that double bass requires more physical strength than bass guitar (higher action, longer scale, larger physical shape, the tone needs to be generated totally acoustically without amplification). As a side effect, I think it is less tolerant of poor technique.

Not disagreeing with Damon, Philip or DC, just saying my experience is different. Maybe the trouble is that I have been playing bass guitar so long I've forgotten how I had to work at simple things when I started. Dunno.

For me the transition from bass guitar to double bass has taken much longer than I expected, and there were times when I got discouraged, but I have persisted and it's worth it.

If you choose to persist it definitely sounds to me like you need to resolve your setup issues. I also think it's important to spend some time on technique, and discussing your issues with your teacher. My teacher has long stressed the importance of good technique to avoid injury as well as to play properly.
 
#24
well. let's see. playing properly will avoid injury. and avoiding injury will be the result of playing properly. it doesn't matter what instrument you are playing. just think of it as the human voice. specifically, your own. amen.
 
#25
I'm one of those BG players who was told by the band leader to go get a double bass 'cos next week we're going to stop being a country band and we're gonna be a swing band. Uh... OK. I had 5 days to the first gig, a brand new out of the box carved top German bass, and absolutely no idea what to do. I was 41. I'm now 64 and still have no idea what to do, but I'm having fun. I was awful.... I mean... I was freaking awful, but I persevered, and they persevered with me. Eventually some things started to sink in. I tried a couple of teachers and then found one who was good for me. Three years later that band broke up, but I kept playing and learning, and I've played with some pretty good cats over the years. Fortunately they were mostly pretty tolerant.
I'm relating this because there are two factors involved. First is ...... you have got to want to do it pretty bad, because its a difficult, ornery instrument. Second, you have to have a stubborn mule-like persistance to keep at it.
BTW: I have a crushed disc and two crumbling vertebrae in my lower back, have had it for 16 years. Yes it hurts, but this is where the persistance part comes into play. If I know I've got a gig coming up that's going to be hard on the back I dose myself up with painkillers immediately before the gig.
Hope this all helps. Good luck.
 
#26
ptg said:
I thought that maybe I'll pick up a new cheap bass that's easier to play - maybe a Thompson or something. Excitedly, I picked up the bass to play along with a couple of songs. Within 15 minutes my back and hands hurt
Click to expand...

So you put it down and pick it up again when you've had a little recovery time.

When I started playing DB (2 years ago) I couldn't play it for more than 10 minutes at a time without getting discomfort in my back and my wrists feeling fatigued, so I just took it slowly and built up to it like you would anything else. I can now play a couple of hours without flaking out (although when playing unamplified my stamina drops because more effort is required - that's normal!).

Just take it as slowly as you need to. You won't be immediately blazing around the thing like you can on bass guitar, so instead enjoy the tone of it, enjoy playing less and picking your notes carefully, concentrate on intonation and hand position and getting a good sound from a well disciplined pizz action. Before you know it you'll be improving and playing more difficult stuff, and the fundamentals will start to take care of themselves (although I still try to practise intonation exercises every day to be honest).

I think you're just expecting to be able to do too much too soon. It's not a race. :)
 
#28
damonsmith said:
Without turning it into a Rabbath/Simandl debate, I think Rabbath is best for experienced players going all the way with it.
I think the Jury will be out for a while yet on those who came up on it as a beginner method.
Electric players are better off being grounded in Simandl.
Click to expand...

My time is limited. My teacher knows a lot more than me and I do what I'm told. Let me tell you that doesn't happen often! :)

For me it's Simandl and french bow. Can't comment on Simandl vs Rabbath, but I understand german bow is physically easier.

My double bass playing also improved when I made time to swim regularly, which improved my body strength. But when my teacher is pushing me to improve my technique, it usually means changing what I do with my muscles and that usually hurts at first.
 
#29
damonsmith said:
Without turning it into a Rabbath/Simandl debate, I think Rabbath is best for experienced players going all the way with it.
I think the Jury will be out for a while yet on those who came up on it as a beginner method.
Electric players are better off being grounded in Simandl.
Click to expand...

What I've found works is for someone to get comfortable on the bass itself with Vance/Rabbath and then go back and study the Simandl fingerings and approach. The pivots and larger positions seem to work well with soloing and environments where I'm the only bassist but Simandl seems to work better in orchestral settings.
The bassist who made me aware of the Vance/Rabbath approach for students is Joel Riest, the Principal Bassist of the Nashville Symphony. I was bemoaning the frustrations of my beginning students and Simandl (most of them are Electric Bassists who haven't touched a Double Bass until they got to college) to Joel and he recommended that approach. It's seemed to work so far.
 
#30
Les Fret said:
Can you explain what you mean by that. I play both but I don't understand your statement.
Click to expand...

I'm not Damon, and he may have his own thoughts on this that are different from mine, but seeing as I chimed in agreeing with him I will offer my own perspective.

When played properly, the DB should be close to effortless. The hard work of pressing down the giant strings the great distance to the fingerboard is divided among many muscle groups. The body of the player is held in a relaxed position that once learned correctly can be held for hours without fatigue or strain.

The best way I can describe it is to invite you to imagine hammering a nail into a board- once the nail is flush with the board, you STOP HAMMERING! :) It really doesn't take a lot of physical strength to play a DB- it takes focused energy. This is best learned with the assistance of a trained, experienced teacher.

Now take the BG- most weigh in at anywhere from seven to twelve pounds or so (ymmv)- hang this around your neck by a strap and it pulls the body out of a natural relaxed state. Some BG players utilize a technique that is very wasteful of energy- that in tandem with the previously mentioned issue can add up such maladies as carpel tunnel syndrome and sore necks and backs, just to name a few.

Any instrument played mindfully with good, economic technique will be easier on the player than one pursued mindlessly with poor technique. The BG is much less forgiving of poor technique, so it stands to reason that more people will do more damage to themselves over a longer period of time that they might with a DB- which requires a more economic approach, and is less forgiving.

That's my two cents...

Toss in the usual disclaimers...

Respectfully,

Joe
 
#31
DC Bass said:
I'm not Damon, and he may have his own thoughts on this that are different from mine, but seeing as I chimed in agreeing with him I will offer my own perspective.

When played properly, the DB should be close to effortless. The hard work of pressing down the giant strings the great distance to the fingerboard is divided among many muscle groups. The body of the player is held in a relaxed position that once learned correctly can be held for hours without fatigue or strain.

The best way I can describe it is to invite you to imagine hammering a nail into a board- once the nail is flush with the board, you STOP HAMMERING! :) It really doesn't take a lot of physical strength to play a DB- it takes focused energy. This is best learned with the assistance of a trained, experienced teacher.

Now take the BG- most weigh in at anywhere from seven to twelve pounds or so (ymmv)- hang this around your neck by a strap and it pulls the body out of a natural relaxed state. Some BG players utilize a technique that is very wasteful of energy- that in tandem with the previously mentioned issue can add up such maladies as carpel tunnel syndrome and sore necks and backs, just to name a few.

Any instrument played mindfully with good, economic technique will be easier on the player than one pursued mindlessly with poor technique. The BG is much less forgiving of poor technique, so it stands to reason that more people will do more damage to themselves over a longer period of time that they might with a DB- which requires a more economic approach, and is less forgiving.

That's my two cents...

Toss in the usual disclaimers...

Respectfully,

Joe
Click to expand...

Would you agree that proper posture and good technique make either instrument easier to play, and bad posture or technique can result in damage on either instrument?

Your profile says you have played both upright and electric. Which came first for you?
 
#32
fingerbun said:
Would you agree that proper posture and good technique make either instrument easier to play, and bad posture or technique can result in damage on either instrument?

Your profile says you have played both upright and electric. Which came first for you?
Click to expand...

Oh yes! Absolutely! I tried to make that point towards the end of the post, but I didn't do a very good job.
Actually, expand that to ANY instrument, not just basses!

It's just that you can get away with more on the slab, and little bits of damage can build up over longer periods of time adding up to more potential harm. Most folk give up on DB before they seriously hurt themselves...not all though.

I started on EB about thirty ish years ago. I was required to double on DB as a music major-I had about five or six years of BG under my belt at that time- I ended up quitting DB after I left school because I didn't acquire the proper technique- the classic story- I could play for a while, but when I was done I'd be in so much pain that I couldn't play for days. Recuperate and repeat. No fun!

About fifteen years ago or so I got back into DB, this time I got the teacher I needed and did the work. My teacher asked me to play seated and showed me a really economical way to play. Now, I can play for eight or nine hours, and all that hurts is my butt from sitting on that danged stool! :D
I should get a pad....

Joe
 
#33
fingerbun said:
My time is limited. My teacher knows a lot more than me and I do what I'm told. Let me tell you that doesn't happen often! :)

For me it's Simandl and french bow. Can't comment on Simandl vs Rabbath, but I understand german bow is physically easier.

My double bass playing also improved when I made time to swim regularly, which improved my body strength. But when my teacher is pushing me to improve my technique, it usually means changing what I do with my muscles and that usually hurts at first.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on Simandl, but I bow German- I just started messing with French again on a lark.

I also agree with your observation in your last paragraph: asking muscle groups to do new things usually means some discomfort while they learn their new jobs- no way around that unfortunately.

"My teacher knows a lot more than me and I do what I'm told!"
Sig worthy!!! :hyper:

Joe
 
#34
You can do nearly all the work with DB by shifting yourself into the right posture, relaxing, and letting gravity do the work. This isn't possible with BG 'cause it's hanging off you, giving almost no leverage. However, you do need a certain level of fitness (which takes time), and the control to relax when applying big forces to something (which doesn't come all that naturally), and that's where teachers can help a lot.

So yes, DB can be less tiring than BG to play, once you have the right form and technique, because all the muscle actions that are going on are quick twitches to shift from one posture to the next, rather than painful and cramp-inducing sustained pressure.
 
#35
I remember seeing Gary Peacock play a few months ago, and he is not of impressive stature and is also an older gentleman, but it seemed so easy for him. Seemed like gravity was doing most of the work. Like, "I could stand here and flip this lightswitch on and off allll niiight..."

I've been on DB a year after playing EB a while. All the physical trouble seemed to dissolve after about eight months. I know I must be burning way, way fewer calories for better results at this point. All this gripping, straining, and butt-clenching I was doing was totally not helping.

edit: I was just repeating what some of the recent guys said. But I definitely feel that DB can be easier than EB. For starters, there's nothing hanging off your neck all day long.
 
#36
Hello to everyone -

Here are some pictures of the bass in question. Please see my next post for 2 more. I'm not quite sure what to photograph bridge-wise but I took one of the neck damage and a few of the bridge placement.

Ed Fuqua mentioned Jeff Bollbach. I did take it to him many years ago. If my recollection is correct he thought it would be about $500.00 to do the basic work but I don't remember the scope of the estimate. I believe it was to get the bass more playable but I don't remember the discussions regarding thumb position action and string placement on the neck. I'm assuming it would cost more today to really fix all of the problems...

Any and all opinions would be appreciated.

Thank you all so much!
 

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#38
DC Bass said:
Now take the BG- most weigh in at anywhere from seven to twelve pounds or so (ymmv)- hang this around your neck by a strap and it pulls the body out of a natural relaxed state. Some BG players utilize a technique that is very wasteful of energy- that in tandem with the previously mentioned issue can add up such maladies as carpel tunnel syndrome and sore necks and backs, just to name a few.

Any instrument played mindfully with good, economic technique will be easier on the player than one pursued mindlessly with poor technique. The BG is much less forgiving of poor technique, so it stands to reason that more people will do more damage to themselves over a longer period of time that they might with a DB- which requires a more economic approach, and is less forgiving.
Click to expand...

You make very good points. Every instrument should be played with the least amount of tension and effort. But I don't agree with your last statement that a BG is less forgiving of poor technique. I think DB is physical harder to learn at the beginning stage and therefore the risk of injuries is bigger.
Also carrying the DB around all the time to gigs and rehearsals is more intense.
Sitting in an orchestra for a few hours with a heavy DB resting on your lap is also quite intense for your body.
 
#39
I did say they were both less forgiving didn't I! :D

You were kind enough to disagree with the substance of my opinion rather than nit picking semantics- which I appreciate. I'm glad that we can have a difference of opinion and still remain civil.

Respectfully,

Joe
 

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