Double Bass I give up!

[Les Fret]

I enjoy playing both. They are very different. I know now I should not expect to play the same stuff on the BG that I play on the DB and vice versa.

But it still is fun to do so. I like to play BG stuff like Teentown on my DB. Also I like to play my classical DB stuff on my fretless bass. It gives you a new insight and ways of problem solving on both instruments. These two instruments mutually influence each other in my case and I like that.

Also I equally enjoy and respect both instruments.

 

[ptg]

Interestingly enough, I have played 4-5 hour gigs on the EB with no discomfort at all.

My main back pain occurs when I bend forward. That being said, bending over to get the DB in and out of the car and then bending forward to play, it causes me a great deal of discomfort.

 

[damonsmith]

Bending forward to play is not good technique, and should only happen for a very short time when playing at the end of the fingerboard.
You can't learn effortless playing online, you need to go to a good teacher for that.

As far as Rabbath vs. Simandl in this case: I have seen good results across the board with Simandl. With Rabbath, I have seen amazing results with older, experienced players converting or the real hardcores that study with Rabbath or one of his close disciples.
In my experience, lightly engaging with Rabbath's ideas as a primary method leads to really flimsy technique that is not very useful for day to day bass playing.
The Simandl ideas are very solid and simple, and therefore can yield quicker, more reliable results - thus better for doublers and beginners.

 

[fingerbun]

Interestingly enough, I have played 4-5 hour gigs on the EB with no discomfort at all.

I'm with you on that one. To me the weight of an electric is nothing and an upright weighs more. That said, lots of electric players worry about the weight.

My main back pain occurs when I bend forward. That being said, bending over to get the DB in and out of the car and then bending forward to play, it causes me a great deal of discomfort.

My teacher would say to play seated, not standing, get a stool that can be set to the proper height, and get your posture right. He would stress that many players who have bad posture develop spinal issues. In my case that means not slouching forward and not leaning slightly toward my bowing hand.

As for getting it in and out of the car, dunno. How do you put it in?

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Hello to everyone -

Here are some pictures of the bass in question. Please see my next post for 2 more. I'm not quite sure what to photograph bridge-wise but I took one of the neck damage and a few of the bridge placement.

Ed Fuqua mentioned Jeff Bollbach. I did take it to him many years ago. If my recollection is correct he thought it would be about $500.00 to do the basic work but I don't remember the scope of the estimate. I believe it was to get the bass more playable but I don't remember the discussions regarding thumb position action and string placement on the neck. I'm assuming it would cost more today to really fix all of the problems...

Any and all opinions would be appreciated.

Thank you all so much!

Well, it's going to cost something to fix, for sure, given that the neck's going to have to be done for much else to be meaningful; that old 'repair' is a disaster. Looks like the neck needs reset, you probably need a new tail wire because the tail piece placement is awful, and almost certainly the fingerboard will need redressed. Getting sound post and bridge right will kind of disappear in all of that. However, the result would be a very playable bass that will almost certainly sound dramatically better than it does now. How good, of course, you can't know without knowing more about the bass.

 

[boombloom]

Teentown? On the upright? Let's see it!

But it still is fun to do so. I like to play BG stuff like Teentown on my DB. Also I like to play my classical DB stuff on my fretless bass. It gives you a new insight and ways of problem solving on both instruments. These two instruments mutually influence each other in my case and I like that.

Also I equally enjoy and respect both instruments.

 

[fingerbun]

Many years ago my wife surprised me with a beat up double bass that she found in the back of a store. It's a 1940's German plywood bass that sounds great

One, the instrument has sentimental value and two it sounds great. These count for something.

Well, it's going to cost something to fix, for sure, given that the neck's going to have to be done for much else to be meaningful; that old 'repair' is a disaster. Looks like the neck needs reset, you probably need a new tail wire because the tail piece placement is awful, and almost certainly the fingerboard will need redressed. Getting sound post and bridge right will kind of disappear in all of that. However, the result would be a very playable bass that will almost certainly sound dramatically better than it does now. How good, of course, you can't know without knowing more about the bass.

I think of dressing the fingerboard, along with sound post and bridge setup, as normal maintenance. The guy who works on my basses automatically replaces the tail wire on new cheap ones. So the neck reset seems to be your main worry.

There are "pure" ways of fixing the neck and there are ways that are effective but not "pure", without being a hatchet job. Specifically any use of metal screws or modern non-animal glues is, I understand frowned upon, though in the case of a cheaper bass they may make the repair cost effective.

I broke the neck off my cheap plywood bass about a year ago and was faced with the following choices:

1. Install new good neck - approx $3,000
2. Install new neck same quality as bass - $1,000
3. Bolt and glue old neck together using modern glues - $280.

The bass was worth maybe $1,000-1,500. (These are Australian prices. US prices are usually much lower I think). Option 1 wasn't worth it, and my repair guy's advice was that option 3 was considered cheating by purists, but in his view would result in a stronger neck than option 2. No complaints with the repair so far.

So when a luthier advises repair, it's probably worth asking how they will approach it. There might be better and cheaper options. In New York I would also imagine you could approach a couple of luthiers for advice. Not possible here.

(Of course, if the bass is collectable, I would spend the money to do a proper job!)

 

[ptg]

Thanks, everyone for your input!

Yes, the bass has sentimental value. But I am hesitant given the fact that my wife paid (and I'm guessing here) a few hundred dollars for it knowing that it needed work and that it would be a bass to learn on. I've already invested the money into having the bridge and new strings installed as well as having it set up the best it could be, albeit many years ago. When do you reach that point where it's better to buy something else? Also, I'm basing the sound on my ear which has not had a chance to play many other double basses.

That's why I asked for your knowing and unbiased eyes to evaluate it the best you can from internet photos.

On the other hand I've mentioned buying a new Shen or Thompson or something like that and no one has said, 'Yes, just go for that.' which leads me to believe that they are not all that good.

So, I'm still not sure what to do. I could have Jeff Bolbach look at it again but I don't want to waste his time or mine.

On playing the instrument itself:

Fingerbun, I just fold down my back seats and gently take the bass out best I can. is there a prescribed method you can suggest?

It's also nice to hear that you all think it's possible to play even with my back issues. I'm very excited to hear that!

Anyway, if I decide to give it one more try, I first have to make a decision on the bass. If I can come to that answer, I just may take a deep breath, search for a teacher and give it one more try.

I think my sanity may be an issue as well!

 

[iiipopes]

I suggest you drop the bucks for a well setup bass and some lessons to get the proper approach to the instrument. Last year I picked up DB after playing EB since the summer of 1976. I took a year to make sure my bass was set up properly, my approach to the instrument and technique were proper, and now a year later not only do the gigs sound great, but the gigs I've done have already led to being asked to do more gigs than I've done even on bass guitar in the last few years.

I encourage you to reconsider and hang in there.

 

[fingerbun]

Fingerbun, I just fold down my back seats and gently take the bass out best I can. is there a prescribed method you can suggest?

I don't know a prescribed method. I put the bass in via the tailgate. I sit it so the bottom is on the ground and the back near the neckjoint is leaning on the rim of the tailgate, then tip and push it in, much like a big bass cab. Done very gently of course to avoid damage. The body is always supporting the weight of the instrument.

I'd imagine it's no different to how you are careful with other stuff you have to lift.

Uprights are fragile if badly handled, but they don't fall apart if you sneeze on them. However the neck can break if you drop them a metre onto concrete and they land at the wrong angle. From previous posts you know how I know this, but it leads to another comment about lifting them. Never lift by only one handle on the bag, since it's not pretty if the handle breaks

 

[Don Higdon]

That's why I asked for your knowing and unbiased eyes to evaluate it the best you can from internet photos.......

....So, I'm still not sure what to do. I could have Jeff Bolbach look at it again but I don't want to waste his time or mine.

It's almost laughable to be asking for advice via the internet when you have Jeff Bollbach at hand. Whatever Jeff says, you can take it to the bank. He's straight arrow. Ask for a cost/benefit analysis.

As I read all your posts, I'm convinced that the source of your physical pains is your own unconscious behaviors. I suggest that you investigate the Alexander Technique. I can help you with teacher recommendations.

 

[ptg]

It's almost laughable to be asking for advice via the internet when you have Jeff Bollbach at hand. Whatever Jeff says, you can take it to the bank. He's straight arrow. Ask for a cost/benefit analysis.

As I read all your posts, I'm convinced that the source of your physical pains is your own unconscious behaviors. I suggest that you investigate the Alexander Technique. I can help you with teacher recommendations.

If you had read my previous post, I mentioned that if the consensus was that it wasn't worth repairing at all, I did not want to waste his time or mine ( a 2-hour car ride). Someone had asked to see pictures and I complied and was hoping for the best...

The Alexander Technique looks interesting as I've always lived in a very high stress/depressed environment. But I do have a multitude of documented health issues.


iiipopes - Thanks for the support as well!!

fingerbun - Good advice. I never thought of sliding the bass into the car that way but it does make sense. I don't have a case for this bass but I'll be sure to remember to never use just the handle on one!

 

[PocketGroove82]

...just give up already.

 

[ptg]

Okay then - I'll give Jeff a call and have him reevaluate the situation. I'm not sure what his schedule is with the holidays (I know mine is crazy) so it may take a while.

Can't thank all of you enough for your help! I really don't know any other DB players, so this forum is priceless for me.

I"ll do a quick post with the results and whether or not I plan on going ahead and put this all to rest. I didn't foresee this becoming such a saga and I apologize if I came off as being too needy.

 

[TroyK]

Time for me to weigh in on this thread. I deeply emphathise with the OP on this and it reminded me that I seriously considered quitting as well. I was one of these "been playing EB for 20 years" guys, who expected it to be easier than it was. I didn't want a teacher, because I had "graduated" from music lessons a lifetime ago. I was in a good working band and knew the songs, felt that I would just adjust to the new instrument and be on my way.

I don't have to tell you it didn't go that way. I ended up with a teacher and then another teacher. I worked SO INCREADIBLY HARD, but felt like a rank beginner player and wished on gigs that I could just pick up my Fender and prove to people that I wasn't a ****** player and did some times. Then there's maintaining it, amplifying it, moving it around town and realization that this fantasy I had of it being an acoustic instrument was fantasy. Then another crushing reality when my teacher played my crappy plywood bass and got 5x the volume of it without appearing to try.

Pain, injury, expense, crappy playing, impracticality. I seriously considered quitting that first year. 4 or 5 years later, I was mostly past that, but now injured and considered taking up guitar or piano or something else. There's another local guy who's story roughly parallels mine who did just that for the same reasons.

Now, it's still hard work. I'm mostly happy with my playing. I aspire to be better and always will, but I'm competent and comfortable on the instrument. It's still really hard work and I keep an electric bass around because it's much less effort to practice on it, compose on it, etc.

In the end, I didn't quit because I JUST HAD TO do this. I just had to. Had it not been so, no way would I have put myself through that. I don't fault anyone for making a different choice. I try to not respond to the people who come here with that attitude looking for our quick fix answers to making the transition and sometimes I get short with them, which I almost always regret. I wouldn't have listened or appreciated the tone back when either.

But, that's my story.

 

[ptg]

Troy, that was a very inspirational post! Interesting that you had to go through more than one teacher and a bit of pain to get where you are. I listened to your playing on your site and you are a wonderful player! It doesn't sound like it's hard work for you!

I am anxious to bring my bass to Jeff and take it from there.

Thanks again for sharing your story...

 

[TroyK]

Thanks, I'm a perpetual work in process. I realize that if me from 10 years ago would have seen 2011 me play I would have thought "wow, that guy's a good player". Me today realizes that I'm not. There are some really fine players in the world, some of them among us on this forum.

That said, I'm usually pleased with my playing in context and have the opportunity to play with some great musicians who I commune blissfully with. 10 years from now, who knows?

But, I'll tell you this, I still love it and it continues to be worth it to me.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

I still love it and it continues to be worth it to me.

That's the crux of the biscuit, right there, whatever your biscuit may be.

Thanks for sticking around, Troy.

 

[ptg]

Hello!

Since you all were so supportive, I wanted to let you know that I took the bass to Jeff yesterday.

With the main issue being the action in thumb position, given the limitations of what he can do from the previous damage and the overall value of the bass, Jeff thinks that he can get a 25-35% improvement. I'm hoping that will be enough to get the job done.

He agreed that the bass sounded pretty good and probably better than a new entry level $1,500 instrument.

With that work and a bunch of other ailments to fix (new tail pin, etc.) the bill came to about $500.

So, on Monday I am hoping to pick up a more playable bass and armed with that inspiration begin the search for a new teacher!

Thanks, again, for all of your help and kind words!

 

[Anonymatt]

Cool to see you're getting started with all this.