I hate "Feel-Good" teaching methods

[JimmyM]

I don't believe in browbeating students and constantly pointing out nothing but mistakes, but while teachers and those offering advice should try to keep things encouraging, this business of offering meaningless platitudes as great pearls of wisdom just doesn't cut it with me.

What makes musicians want to fall for such drivel? OK, I'm half-kidding, but half-serious, too. Every type of work has its own exclusive jargon, and we're no different. But too many of us take meaningless phrases and quotes from famous musicians (who, let's admit, can be pretty out there at times) and accept them as law for every single thing they could possibly do. But not all music is meant to groove, not all music is meant to have a heavy hit on the one, the bass and bass drum don't have to play the same thing at the same time, and trust me...there most certainly are wrong notes, and you're not always a half-step away from the right one, either.

A couple months ago, Steve Bailey did a Berklee Zoom teleconference with several awesome bass players, and the one thing they had in common other than being awesome is that they were all strong music readers. Steve asked them what makes reading so important to them, and I can't remember exactly what Ron Carter said, but to paraphrase it, he said, "Sometimes a producer will say something to me like, 'Play a little more green," or 'play a little more red,' and I just can't relate to that because I have no idea what he means. But if he speaks to me in actual musical terms, like asking me to play specific notes or uses terms like 'staccato' or "syncopated,'" or tells me to play in front of the beat or behind it, I know exactly what they mean and I can deliver what they want every time."

That's how I've felt about it for a very long time, and while I understand what is meant by "groove" or "locking in" (another term I completely detest), locking into a groove means different things in different genres. You're not going to lock into a funk groove the exact same way you'd lock into a punk rock groove or a swing groove. And if you tell me I'm not locking in correctly in a genre I'm not as familiar with, I'm going to ask you what you mean. And I'm going to look at you like you're a moron if you tell me to play more red. But if you tell me to play more legato and get a little behind the beat, that I can do.

Play more red...LOL!

 

[Joe Nerve]

there most certainly are wrong notes, and you're not always a half-step away from the right one, either.

This jumped out at me. I read that book too. If the whole band is playing a C maj and you hit an F# - good luck at convincing anyone you used that as a pick up note .

RE the other stuff, I don't know how to read. I've tried countless times and will continue countless more, but I think its like math anxiety. My brain just shuts down when trying to work that way. Anyhow, I think its best to cover ALL basses (pun intended ). I never heard blue and red before, but I think I'd laugh if someone told me that and then just ask what the hell they were talking about. I think part of being a solid musician is being ready to take whatever is thrown in our path, and do it with a smile.

Which is why I'm going to continue to try to learn to read .... Maybe even today.

 

[JimmyM]

This jumped out at me. I read that book too. If the whole band is playing a C maj and you hit an F# - good luck at convincing anyone you used that as a pick up note .

Well fortunately, in that case, you actually ARE a half step from a right note Doesn't mean it'll be the most correct right note, but at least it's in the chord.

RE the other stuff, I don't know how to read. I've tried countless times and will continue countless more, but I think its like math anxiety. My brain just shuts down when trying to work that way. Anyhow, I think its best to cover ALL basses (pun intended ). I never heard blue and red before, but I think I'd laugh if someone told me that and then just ask what the hell they were talking about. I think part of being a solid musician is being ready to take whatever is thrown in our path, and do it with a smile.

Which is why I'm going to continue to try to learn to read .... Maybe even today.

I honestly don't know how guys like you can play so well without reading because I've never known any other way. But you understand notes and chord theory, and that's a major part of the battle. I've found that in cases with guys like you who know music but can't read, it's very possible that maybe you're not attempting it in small enough chunks to digest and ingest and become a part of you. Some folks want to learn too much too soon, especially if they know music to some degree already. If I'm wrong about that, so be it, but I've found it's better to take as long as you need to recognize a single note every time you see it rather than learning the staff all at once. I'm still not the world's greatest at recognizing the ledger lines above and below the staff, so I have to work at it unless there's only a couple of ledger lines, and I can actually recognize up to the high B on the G string now. Takes time.

 

[Nashrakh]

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "feel-good teaching methods", or I must have misread your Bailey anecdote. I mean, I have a general idea (thought about teaching myself, but from what I've heard, the need for easy and instant gratification throws my ideas of what to teach for a solid foundation straight out the window), but the what and the why of your criticism elude me a bit.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "feel-good teaching methods", or I must have misread your Bailey anecdote. I mean, I have a general idea (thought about teaching myself, but from what I've heard, the need for easy and instant gratification throws my ideas of what to teach for a solid foundation straight out the window), but the what and the why of your criticism elude me a bit.

OK, well here a couple examples, other than that Victor Wooten quote I used earlier about being a half-step away from the right note.

"It's always got to groove."

"It's all about the one." I love Bootsy, but this only applies for the James Brown school of funk, and isn't necessarily indicative of all music.

"You have to lock into the bass drum." Meanwhile, Jamerson made his bones and defined an entire genre by being a funk bassist who often plowed right through the drummer.

I also hate what I call "mall teaching," where you let the student dictate the curriculum just so he or she comes back every week for the lesson that does them no good whatsoever.

He's not exactly the most pleasant person who ever lived (though he has been working on it over the last 10 years), but Jeff Berlin is right when he says there's not nearly enough emphasis on what he calls "musical facts," based on concepts best found in jazz. But once you get them down, you can do anything you want. That's how I learned, and I believe it to be 100% true. Still not much of a jazz fan, though

 

[Koshchei]

I don't believe in browbeating students and constantly pointing out nothing but mistakes, but while teachers and those offering advice should try to keep things encouraging, this business of offering meaningless platitudes as great pearls of wisdom just doesn't cut it with me.

What makes musicians want to fall for such drivel? OK, I'm half-kidding, but half-serious, too. Every type of work has its own exclusive jargon, and we're no different. But too many of us take meaningless phrases and quotes from famous musicians (who, let's admit, can be pretty out there at times) and accept them as law for every single thing they could possibly do. But not all music is meant to groove, not all music is meant to have a heavy hit on the one, the bass and bass drum don't have to play the same thing at the same time, and trust me...there most certainly are wrong notes, and you're not always a half-step away from the right one, either.

A couple months ago, Steve Bailey did a Berklee Zoom teleconference with several awesome bass players, and the one thing they had in common other than being awesome is that they were all strong music readers. Steve asked them what makes reading so important to them, and I can't remember exactly what Ron Carter said, but to paraphrase it, he said, "Sometimes a producer will say something to me like, 'Play a little more green," or 'play a little more red,' and I just can't relate to that because I have no idea what he means. But if he speaks to me in actual musical terms, like asking me to play specific notes or uses terms like 'staccato' or "syncopated,'" or tells me to play in front of the beat or behind it, I know exactly what they mean and I can deliver what they want every time."

That's how I've felt about it for a very long time, and while I understand what is meant by "groove" or "locking in" (another term I completely detest), locking into a groove means different things in different genres. You're not going to lock into a funk groove the exact same way you'd lock into a punk rock groove or a swing groove. And if you tell me I'm not locking in correctly in a genre I'm not as familiar with, I'm going to ask you what you mean. And I'm going to look at you like you're a moron if you tell me to play more red. But if you tell me to play more legato and get a little behind the beat, that I can do.

Play more red...LOL!

You've obviously never played with somebody with synaesthesia before. It can be a little nerve-wracking to create a Rosetta Stone for what "red" means, as "red" will be different for everyone who has their internal wires crossed, but it could mean more midrange, more attack, more bloom, plucking closer to the bridge, etc.

It's really infuriating when it's somebody who doesn't actually have synaesthesia, but read about it somewhere, because "red" will mean something different as soon as they've forgotten what it originally "meant" 15 minutes earlier. Since they're probably paying you if they're telling you what colour to play, calling out their ******** is usually not the way to go.

 

[Les Fret]

This jumped out at me. I read that book too. If the whole band is playing a C maj and you hit an F# - good luck at convincing anyone you used that as a pick up note .

That #11 actually sounds very nice over Cmaj.

 

[LBS-bass]

That #11 actually sounds very nice over Cmaj.

I actually had my controller keyboard out when I read this so I played it and it immediately led me to playing the first chords of "Maria" from "West Side Story." That may have been written in a different key, I don't recall, but the same melodic construct is used repeatedly in the first few measures, with the 11 as a passing tone (the second syllable of "Ma-ri-a.") So if it's good enough for Lenny, it's probably good enough for me.

 

[Joe Nerve]

That #11 actually sounds very nice over Cmaj.

Not if it's the final chord of a song .

 

[LBS-bass]

"On the ONE" is definitely a funk thing. But ONE thing I have learned in my days working with people at various levels of experience is that there are quite a few players out there who don't have the feel of the count in their bodies when they play. Those people lose where ONE is sometimes and it's not bad instruction to remind them to stay focused on ONE and to keep coming back to it so that they don't lose it.

 

[bherman]

Fully agree with you on this one @JimmyM. Especially the reading part. The way to learn how to read is pretty simple, just consider how we learn to read when we're growing up. 1) start at the beginning 2)don't progress to the next level until you're ready 3) do it every day.

As a kid, it probably takes what - 3+ years to learn how to read simple stuff, to the point when you can advance on your own. IME, music is the same way. I'm a decent music reader - not great - but I work at it every day, I gradually get better. Not rocket science. Like reading words, it opens so many doors. Imagine having to learn stories, science, math, if you could only do so by listening?

When I was a kid, I had a really old school teacher (saxophone) and it was nonstop drills. As I kid I hated it (mostly) but even then, knew that I was really learning the instrument.

 

[Govner22]

If the idea of “you’re always a half step away from the right note” is meant to help developing musicians be a little bold, make some mistakes, and learn from them, then I’d say it’s useful. I tend to be a little too careful at times, which can deprive me of those moments when I hit an odd note and I discover something new. But if it’s a bad note I want to be told that, either by my teacher or by my ear, which I think is what you’re getting at.

 

[Guild B301]

It’s just like in sports, where everyone gets a prize, and there are no losers. It’s stupid. If you make a mistake, you learn from it.

 

[AxtoOx]

I've taught martial arts but a lot of comparison.
You give people an easy way you get more less efficient product, as opposed to committed. Up for repetition and discomfort.

 

[lfmn16]

I'm with you. You want to learn to play an instrument at the professional level? It's a lot of hard work. You learn proper technique, you learn to read music, you learn theory, you practice your buttocks off. Sure, some guys have crap technique, some can't read, don't know a lick of theory; but they succeeded IN SPITE of that, not because of that. And don't excuse your shortcoming by talking about how you groove. You can groove, and have feel, and have good technique, and know theory, AND PLAY THE RIGHT DAMN NOTES all at the same time. It's what the professionals do.

Now get off my lawn and go learn something!

 

[consectaneus]

Unfortunately, "there are no shortcuts" is not a winning marketing strategy. But this is not new, I guess. There have always been a lot of easy 1-2-3 steps type books to learning whatever. Ultimately it leads to frustration or dissatisfaction. Now, in some cases this can serve to motivate someone to seek out further study. That happened to me with walking bass lines. There are formulas that help someone create perfectly functional lines, yet when you study the greats, it quickly became obvious to me that they are doing something much more interesting musically than that.

I agree about Jeff Berlin. I'm a fan of his approach. I don't mind strong opinions even if I may disagree. He is very clear about what he thinks he can teach you and there is no nonsense about how to get there. You are going to have to read. One of my "feel good" pet peeves are the promises that it's easy. This may be because some teachers are long past the days where they struggled, so to them it may indeed be easy.

 

[shrimpchowmein]

Great topic and conversation!

I think a lot of those old sayings about bass playing are more or less relevant at different points in any single players growth. There was absolutely a point early on for me after I developed a fair amount of shreddy chops that I had to focus on the “it has to groove” saying. Eventually I became so groove oriented that I was feeling very boxed in harmonically and that whole no wrong note thing helped me loosen up and open my mind more.

Of course through all this the only person really critiquing my playing and style is myself, which is a big reason why it was easy to get stuck in these mindsets. Because like the OP pointed out, they felt good.

I’m somewhat in a phase of returning to the bass guitar again, after about 5 years of focusing on electric guitar and a go at upright bass. This thread served a good reminder to do things a little different this time. Thanks.

 

[whero]

... I can't remember exactly what Ron Carter said, but to paraphrase it, he said, "Sometimes a producer will say something to me like, 'Play a little more green," or 'play a little more red,' and I just can't relate to that because I have no idea what he means..."

Maybe it depends on your tuner? For the GTP7000, I guess 'Play a little more green' means sharp, and 'Play a little more red' means flat, whereas a 'blue note' is spot on.

 

[BarfanyShart]

I've done some stints trying to teach guitar to make ends meet, and ultimately half the parents end up complaining about me because I'm not "supportive" ot "positive enough or whatever. The other half of the students always did well. My DB teacher in high school used to hit my right hand with a bass bow when I put my thumb behind the fingerboard, so I figured I was "feel good" enough if I wasn't striking any children - but I guess I was wrong.

 

[mambo4]

I think the Ron Carter paraphrase drives the point home for me: You gotta learn the accurate terminology for music - something literacy enforces.. Famous Guy might speak in vague "feely" terms like "groove" and "pocket" but unless Famous Guy can jot it down or call it by the proper term , audiences will make up what is meant based on their own particular experience and taste. this is exactly why threads about "how to groove" go on and on for pages. This vaguely and variably defined idea has been elevated to some level of supreme musical attainment, but the more you investigate it he less it seems to actually exist as discreet thing.