I know I said it before, but study kills GAS!

[knight of ni]

maybe I am too set in my ways, and I should quit my lessons. I am 90-95% self taught for over forty years. Maybe I should accept where I am. After a supportive pm with Mr. OB (TB member and Fender fan) and some text messagess with my teacher, I decided to fumble along, the best I can.

Don't accept where you are. One can always progress provided the teacher points out the right way. You may feel regressing at first because you may be trapped into a dead end comfort zone, but it's always worth working. I suppose you have a teacher because you want to improve, so do it.
Do not "fumble along". Set reasonable objectives. Watch your improvements. Be (reasonably) critical so as to work on the weak points, learn to judge your technique as your teacher does (what would he think ?), etc. Kick yourself you know where when the blues settles in (not the musical one).
I had to change teacher this year. The former one said from time to time : your timing is weak. I got along with that and that was it. The new one said "we really have to work on your timing because it's really bad. Your right hand is great, you know how to groove, but your timing...". I spent (sweat !) 2 weeks exclusively on the timing then several weeks with special attention on it. It's not exceptional right now, but it works way better and I feel so good about that progress ! I cannot thank my new teacher enough.
Don't think famous players began equally gifted in all technical aspects. Some had to work hard for even fundamental stuff such as groove.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Don't accept where you are. One can always progress provided the teacher points out the right way. You may feel regressing at first because you may be trapped into a dead end comfort zone, but it's always worth working. I suppose you have a teacher because you want to improve, so do it.
Do not "fumble along". Set reasonable objectives. Watch your improvements. Be (reasonably) critical so as to work on the weak points, learn to judge your technique as your teacher does (what would he think ?), etc. Kick yourself you know where when the blues settles in (not the musical one).
I had to change teacher this year. The former one said from time to time : your timing is weak. I got along with that and that was it. The new one said "we really have to work on your timing because it's really bad. Your right hand is great, you know how to groove, but your timing...". I spent (sweat !) 2 weeks exclusively on the timing then several weeks with special attention on it. It's not exceptional right now, but it works way better and I feel so good about that progress ! I cannot thank my new teacher enough.
Don't think famous players began equally gifted in all technical aspects. Some had to work hard for even fundamental stuff such as groove.

Thanks for your advice and encouragement. As for great players, I know of no great player who not also a great worker. No one is great without putting in serious work.

 

[Scottgun]

[QUOTE="dpbass66, post: 22212402, member: 169823"
The most important thing I learned at Berklee was how to practice, and what to focus on in order to continue to improve and grow after I graduated.
.

Quote of the day. Bravo. I hope you will not be ground down. My word of wisdom ( Tommorrow will be my 1 year anniversary on TB) would be that time spent arguing with TB experts is better spent practicing.[/QUOTE]

That is a good quote. It's also good to remember the OP's dilemma: he's spending money on a teacher and not improving and I have the sneaking suspicion it isn't because of his thumb position. Reading his post my first impression is of people in talk therapy who give a highly-degreed egghead money and years and thousands of dollars later they aren't happier than when they started. I could be way off and he has a really good teacher and he's just stubbornly not heeding his teaching, but I don't think so. It's weird but some people believe that the more a teacher is like Fletcher from Whiplash, the better he is. T'aint so. So rather than pretend that I'm a TB expert (which I don't think I was doing), I'm trying to help by putting myself in his shoes. So if I was taking lessons and was continually hitting a wall, the possible problems I would see are: 1.) It's all me. 2). It's all him or 3.) Some combination of the two. If it's 1, then I just gotta suck it up and do what he says. Funny thing is, if it's either 2 or 3 the answer is the same: at least try another teacher. It could simply be a compatibility problem. I'll end on full agreement : don't get ground down.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Quote of the day. Bravo. I hope you will not be ground down. My word of wisdom ( Tommorrow will be my 1 year anniversary on TB) would be that time spent arguing with TB experts is better spent practicing.

That is a good quote. It's also good to remember the OP's dilemma: he's spending money on a teacher and not improving and I have the sneaking suspicion it isn't because of his thumb position. Reading his post my first impression is of people in talk therapy who give a highly-degreed egghead money and years and thousands of dollars later they aren't happier than when they started. I could be way off and he has a really good teacher and he's just stubbornly not heeding his teaching, but I don't think so. It's weird but some people believe that the more a teacher is like Fletcher from Whiplash, the better he is. T'aint so. So rather than pretend that I'm a TB expert (which I don't think I was doing), I'm trying to help by putting myself in his shoes. So if I was taking lessons and was continually hitting a wall, the possible problems I would see are: 1.) It's all me. 2). It's all him or 3.) Some combination of the two. If it's 1, then I just gotta suck it up and do what he says. Funny thing is, if it's either 2 or 3 the answer is the same: at least try another teacher. It could simply be a compatibility problem. I'll end on full agreement : don't get ground down.[/QUOTE]

I have improved since I started the lessons. The main improvement is getting around on the fingerboard. Also my recognition of written music has improved. Basic things, like memorizing the Circle of Fifths. My intonation I fretless is good in my opinion. I will admit that I have not taken all of teachers directions to heart. Early on he had me do an exercise where I played all the modes for a scale, that went from the first position to the 12 fret. I could play it cleanly at 300 bpm, which was not much slower than teacher. This gave me confidence that my way was pretty good. That said, on pretty every Jaco piece I ended up stumbling, and said I can’t play that music with bad technique.

 

[Manuel Bass]

That is a good quote. It's also good to remember the OP's dilemma: he's spending money on a teacher and not improving and I have the sneaking suspicion it isn't because of his thumb position. Reading his post my first impression is of people in talk therapy who give a highly-degreed egghead money and years and thousands of dollars later they aren't happier than when they started. I could be way off and he has a really good teacher and he's just stubbornly not heeding his teaching, but I don't think so. It's weird but some people believe that the more a teacher is like Fletcher from Whiplash, the better he is. T'aint so. So rather than pretend that I'm a TB expert (which I don't think I was doing), I'm trying to help by putting myself in his shoes. So if I was taking lessons and was continually hitting a wall, the possible problems I would see are: 1.) It's all me. 2). It's all him or 3.) Some combination of the two. If it's 1, then I just gotta suck it up and do what he says. Funny thing is, if it's either 2 or 3 the answer is the same: at least try another teacher. It could simply be a compatibility problem. I'll end on full agreement : don't get ground down.

I have improved since I started the lessons. The main improvement is getting around on the fingerboard. Also my recognition of written music has improved. Basic things, like memorizing the Circle of Fifths. My intonation I fretless is good in my opinion. I will admit that I have not taken all of teachers directions to heart. Early on he had me do an exercise where I played all the modes for a scale, that went from the first position to the 12 fret. I could play it cleanly at 300 bpm, which was not much slower than teacher. This gave me confidence that my way was pretty good. That said, on pretty every Jaco piece I ended up stumbling, and said I can’t play that music with bad technique.[/QUOTE]
Yeah man jaco it’s still teaching us and will for many many years and thousands of bass players, he changed our world
Amen

 

[Manuel Bass]

I have improved since I started the lessons. The main improvement is getting around on the fingerboard. Also my recognition of written music has improved. Basic things, like memorizing the Circle of Fifths. My intonation I fretless is good in my opinion. I will admit that I have not taken all of teachers directions to heart. Early on he had me do an exercise where I played all the modes for a scale, that went from the first position to the 12 fret. I could play it cleanly at 300 bpm, which was not much slower than teacher. This gave me confidence that my way was pretty good. That said, on pretty every Jaco piece I ended up stumbling, and said I can’t play that music with bad technique.

Yeah man jaco it’s still teaching us and will for many many years and thousands of bass players, he changed our world
Amen[/QUOTE]
God bless jaco and trane

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Yeah man jaco it’s still teaching us and will for many many years and thousands of bass players, he changed our world
Amen

God bless jaco and trane[/QUOTE]

It’s funny, when Jaco came out I was a huge Stanley Clarke fan, and swore there was no way Jaco could be better than Stanley Clarke. The other funny thing is that over the years, it became clear to me that I was absorbing Jaco even when I was not trying too. I still think Stanley Clarke is incredibly talented, but Jaco was an actual genius. I think his music will always be fresh and inspirational. At least until his work becomes etudes that all students learn in public school.

 

[Ian Lewis]

About a month ago, I was at my lesson, slogging through the first three bars of Jaco’s “River People.” My teacher wanted to hear how I practiced at home. After listening to me, he tore me a new one; pointing out how my raking persists, he criticized my intonation, thumb position on the back of the neck, my poor time, etc. Later, I found myself thinking that if I have made so little progress in two years, maybe I am too set in my ways, and I should quit my lessons. I am 90-95% self taught for over forty years. Maybe I should accept where I am. After a supportive pm with Mr. OB (TB member and Fender fan) and some text messagess with my teacher, I decided to fumble along, the best I can.

The one thing that never crossed my mind was how great another bass would be. No marvelous boutique Jazz will give me better time. No awesome Dingwall will improve my sight reading. No new rig will make me clean up my left hand technique. To be honest, my lust for gear had largely subsided when I decided to buy a DJ5 instead of a Sadowsky, but that tough assessment of my teacher really hit home that I needed to be a better bassist, not buy a better bass.

I just felt like sharing that, especially for any younger musician who might be side tracked into thinking “if I only had ____.”

Spot on Doctor. A bad workman often blames his tools.

 

[Copperhead]

My teacher says I am raking when I use one finger instead of two. I thought I was consistent in using two fingers, but I am not.

Doc ! I want to get you know this made me examine my own technique and I have to tell you, I had no idea how much I did this either.
After a day or two of exercises,
I can't believe how much of a difference it made in my playing.I looked at Scott's take on this, and see merit in the alternate fingers up, raking down, view.
I'm going to work both ways while the jury stays out for a while.
One thing he said for sure, in playing fast by not using alternate fingers you will he tripping all over yourself.

In an earlier video , he pointed out that in some complex passages figuring out which finger to lead with can be critical too.
The outtake from all of this is the only way to do all this is practice, consciously analyzing what we are doing ans correcting poor technique.

Thanks for a very inspirational thread.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Doc ! I want to get you know this made me examine my own technique and I have to tell you, I had no idea how much I did this either.
After a day or two of exercises,
I can't believe how much of a difference it made in my playing.I looked at Scott's take on this, and see merit in the alternate fingers up, raking down, view.
I'm going to work both ways while the jury stays out for a while.
One thing he said for sure, in playing fast by not using alternate fingers you will he tripping all over yourself.

In an earlier video , he pointed out that in some complex passages figuring out which finger to lead with can be critical too.
The outtake from all of this is the only way to do all this is practice, consciously analyzing what we are doing ans correcting poor technique.

Thanks for a very inspirational thread.

You are welcome. Seriously studying the bass instead of jamming for fun has humbling for me, but I have also improved. Learning to really practice is something that great bassist pick up early. That is surely the the thing that separates the great from the good or ok bassist than anything else.

 

[Nenor]

I'm probably not going to be very popular after this but here are a few points to consider.
Time feel is inherently different within each one of us. Anyone can improve but only from a certain point to a certain point. No teacher can change the way a student was born.
Focusing on playing in time as a main objective is wrong and wont lead you anywhere good. Instead, focus on acquiring musical information and translating it onto your instrument. Read music, practice arpeggios and scales, transcribe music by ear and write it down, learn how to built walking bass lines on chords. Practice on music content regularly.
A metronome will tell you how accurate you are but will never help you getting more accurate. Just like a mirror will tell you how you look but will not help you look better. Sorry, that's the truth.
Groove is a repetitive physical feeling. You don't get that from learning bass. Dancing lessons would do you more good on that aspect. Drum lessons will do too. But again, only to a certain individual point.
16th-notes music is a different territory than 8th-notes music. Just saying.

 

[knight of ni]

I'm probably not going to be very popular

Probably indeed
From what you're saying one could conclude that it's not worth working on a topic he would be born deficient in. I don't know if anyone can compensate a "natural" deficiency through work up to the level of those who were born with a natural skill, but what I know is that everyone can reach a very very good technical level through work.

A metronome will tell you how accurate you are but will never help you getting more accurate. Just like a mirror will tell you how you look but will not help you look better. Sorry, that's the truth.

Exact, a Metronome is a crutch that helps you walk but you have to walk on your own to practice efficiently. Nevertheless one can greatly improve his timing working without a metronome and checking against it.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I'm probably not going to be very popular after this but here are a few points to consider.
Time feel is inherently different within each one of us. Anyone can improve but only from a certain point to a certain point. No teacher can change the way a student was born.
Focusing on playing in time as a main objective is wrong and wont lead you anywhere good. Instead, focus on acquiring musical information and translating it onto your instrument. Read music, practice arpeggios and scales, transcribe music by ear and write it down, learn how to built walking bass lines on chords. Practice on music content regularly.
A metronome will tell you how accurate you are but will never help you getting more accurate. Just like a mirror will tell you how you look but will not help you look better. Sorry, that's the truth.
Groove is a repetitive physical feeling. You don't get that from learning bass. Dancing lessons would do you more good on that aspect. Drum lessons will do too. But again, only to a certain individual point.
16th-notes music is a different territory than 8th-notes music. Just saying.

I don't agree. A teacher can help show you how to groove - where the bass fits, what to listen for, and, like a mirror, give feedback on how you are improving (and what to continue to work on). Part of it nature, but it can be nurtured.

 

[bassboysam]

from personal experience 90% of the time the issue with cheaper basses is the setup. a begginer that understands little about setup will pick up an expensive, properly set up bass that is easier to play and automatically assume that a more expensive instrument will help them play better.

i have a great tech that can turn any pawn shop turd into a $2000 feeling instrument.

moral of the story is get a proper setup before thinking you need an upgrade, especially if you are happy with the overall tone.

having said that i like to try out gear, although less so these days, so yeah i'll have GAS all the time, but it's for the right reasons.

 

[Nenor]

From what you're saying one could conclude that it's not worth working on a topic he would be born deficient in. I don't know if anyone can compensate a "natural" deficiency through work up to the level of those who were born with a natural skill, but what I know is that everyone can reach a very very good technical level through work.

I can't be responsible to anyone's conclusion... However, I was referring to time feel (not any topic) and I did say "Anyone can improve but only from a certain point to a certain point". Those points are not the same with everyone.

 

[Nenor]

show you how to groove

I don't know what that means. We may disagree on the definition of Groove.

 

[Copperhead]

You are welcome. Seriously studying the bass instead of jamming for fun has humbling for me, but I have also improved. Learning to really practice is something that great bassist pick up early. That is surely the the thing that separates the great from the good or ok bassist than anything else.

Humbling indeed. "and for all these years I thought" ...

 

[P. Aaron]

Just throwing this stuff out there:

Music like Jaco’s is highly specialized. It sure beats basic Wrecking Crew stuff & presents several challenges BUT, what do the girls on the dance floor want?
Pastorious’ style is also so organic. He could not work with everyone & eventually anyone as well as those who DID NOT want to cede musical turf to him on stage or in studio.

For humility, I just do sight reading & I realize how much there is to know.

Don’t discount recreational playing. Chase ALL popular styles and the more music types you learn, the more techniques you accumulate & before long, you are playing what you’re hearing and learning new stuff becomes that much easier with better retention of ALL of it.

KEEP AT IT. ALL of it. The new stuff & review the old stuff you *think* you’ve already learned. Think you know a song? Listen to it while driving or when you can’t play along. You’ll know if you have it down.

Jimmy Lee Sloas, Country session player, has at least as many top 20 song credits as any Wrecking Crew, Stax, or LA or Muscle Shoals player, when asked how he comes up with bass lines at his sessions; “I learn other people’s stuff.”

And yes, lessons. Maybe not always but they will get you to levels that you know are peering over your shoulder.

Playing/jamming with others as much as possible. That’s where EVERYTHING about your musicianship, gear and hearing is tested.

Doing those things keeps you confident as well as humble. Confidence in what you know. Humility (and awe) in all that there is still to learn.

 

[Groove Doctor]

If you’re struggling with something.... break it down, go back to fundamentals and work on those.

You need to UN-learn 40 years of bad habits @Dr. Cheese

 

[dpbass66]

I don't know what that means. We may disagree on the definition of Groove.

This reply is to the discussion, not necessarily Ronen.

I always drew a distinction between playing with good metronomic time and playing with good time-feel (groove). I KNOW a person can learn to lock-in with the click of a metronome; that's just a physical feat: learning to synchronize the physical action of sounding notes to an aural stimulus (the click). That is not the same as "feel/groove". I have heard countless players who play metronomically, but have no groove. They sound "ok" because they generally dont rush or slow down, but there is no feel. The next level, after metronomic time, is deeper. I cant say for sure how one learns it, but some people just seem to have it and some dont. A person doesnt need to be metronomic to have good groove either. A classic example was Ron Carter who was known to push the time. He rushed. No one complained though... including Miles Davis, because he swung his ass off. Ive heard countless guys try to play "The Chicken" a la Jaco Pastorius, and while they might have the technique to execute it, never sound like Jaco. Often they are playing with good time, but there is little groove. I play with many drummers, and one of the drummers in town with the fattest pocket (ie groove) has a tendency to rush, an observation generally shared by all musicians in town. He doesnt play steady like a metronome, but nobody cares, because when he us playing, the band feels great.