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I need basic music theory help...

#21
GassieBall said:
I understand scales. I understand modes...

Could you please tell me how to feel and use them???
Click to expand...

you just gotta find the funk man :bassist:

I can't really explain how to feel it out, thats something you need to discover through playing. As far as using them goes, thats something that goes along with a more advanced understanding of theory. I might even say that is kind of what the point of theory is.

Having theory wont make you a master musician
but Lacking it isn't going to either. It can only help, and it does help
 
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#23
different scales/modes offer different 'flavors' - so as to how to feel and use them: make licks that use (or, better yet, are inspired by) a particular scale. and, remember, you don't have to use every note every time; some of the best lines use only a few different notes.

some of my current favorites are the harmonic minor (r 2 m3 4 5 m6 7) and the half-diminished or locrian mode (r m2 m3 4 dim5 m6 m7)
 
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#24
jefkritz said:
different scales/modes offer different 'flavors' - so as to how to feel and use them: make licks that use (or, better yet, are inspired by) a particular scale. and, remember, you don't have to use every note every time; some of the best lines use only a few different notes.

some of my current favorites are the harmonic minor (r 2 m3 4 5 m6 7) and the half-diminished or locrian mode (r m2 m3 4 dim5 m6 m7)
Click to expand...

indeed! :)

all of this should just be viewed as ways to piece together your musical puzzle, not a blueprint. the more theory you know, the more puzzle pieces you have that will actually fit! options are good.

oh and going back to the "explain minor scales" post.. that reminds me.. there are different types of minor scales.

the "normal" minor scale you are familiar with no doubt, is called the natural minor scale.

if you raise the seventh scale degree of the natural minor scale (sharp the seven) you have the harmonic minor scale.

If you play a minor scale with the sixth AND the seventh raised a half step, you have a melodic minor scale (which actually turns out to be a minor tetrachord followed be a major tetrachord, so this scale sorta sounds half minor half major. It is also usually played only ascending (it reverts back to natural minor when it descends for whatever reason.. not really sure why)
 
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#26
You Need to know this stuff to understand music. The way you play is the way you play. It's like speaking, just because you know what verbs, nouns, and pronouns are doesn't mean you speak like a robot. Same thing with music. To be honest, if you want to get anywhere big in the music world you should really understand what you are doing because it makes things ALOT easier. Remember YOU don't need to know theory to know how to play it is just a tool to make things easier.
 
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#27
Angersmoothy said:
i'm pretty oblivious to this theory stuff as well, but this thread sort of got me curious to learn, i did some google searching and found this thing

http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/

just by playing around with it i have learned alot about how scales are made up and what they actually look like on the fretboard
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I am glad we have sparked a curiosity in you. Theory really can be very interesting, I have some friends who are very enthusiastic about theory and love learning it. You start to listen to your favorite music and recognize whats going on within the music, and thats a good feeling. It can also make writing music MUCH MUCH easier.

:bassist:
 
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#28
Victor Wooten said it best [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

He compares music to a language. I agree than every bit that you study the language, the more fluent you become. Right now, as for my "language" skills, I think I made it through high school, perhaps a couple of 100 level courses. My cousin and I in our band both grew up playing classical piano. We know basic theory. We're the only ones who can talk to each other in music theory talk. And we can talk with very few words and get our point across. Whereas to the other guys, I have to talk in fretspeak.

My major point is that the language you use should be appropriate to the setting. Jsingles is very patient. He'll talk to me in high school speak. I think what I get turned off by is when you get a graduate level professor talking to an elementary school student in Shakespearean diction. All it does is frustrate the little kid. :D
 
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#29
yea.. I have had a bad theory teacher before... who tries to explain everything in such complicated lingo that nobody could understand what a triplet was when he was trying to explain it.. (seriously.. its just three notes in the time it usually takes for 2 notes, or a borrowed moment of compound meter) ONE sentence would have explained that to the class, but my teacher just wouldn't explain it in a way that was simple to understand.

I agree that the goal is to be fluent in the musical language, but not in the teaching setting.. How are you supposed to teach music to people if you can't explain it in a way that makes things simpler to understand?

So my advice is to find a GOOD theory teacher if you do decide to ever get instruction. Or ask for help on talkbass :D
 
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#31
GassieBall said:
I understand scales. I understand modes...

Could you please tell me how to feel and use them???
Click to expand...

Here's my take on this... its all about where you place the emphasis within the major (I) scale. Outside of the diatonic notes outside of the major scale, you basically have 7 notes (and their octaves) to choose. You want to emphasize the arpeggios within the I, iii, V modes to lay down the foundation of a groove... in some genres, the vii may get thrown in as well, but the 3rd and 5th really frame chord. For example, in the I-iv-V chord progression in C, the you want to emphasize the following arpeggios:

I - C E G
iv - F A C
V - G B D

Note that that this is every other note of each modal scale... which is exactly what an arpeggio is. The remaining notes from the major scale in each chord are passing notes, and you would typically would use them to transition from one note to the other or create some sense of tension and resolution.

I'm still learning this as well, so I'm using more laymans terms... But hopefully this explanation will be helpful, as I find that a lot of the music theory terminology muddies the waters a bit more than it needs to.
 
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#32
jbassist17 said:
So, I've been learning bass on my own for about 3 years now, never have had any sort of training or anything, just kind of go with it and jam with friends a bit, but have yet to learn one essential aspect that I feel is going to open things up a lot for me: when I'm jamming and the guitarist/pianist says to me we're in the key of (whatever), I've caught on by now that it doesn't mean I can just jam using that scale. What in the world is the difference between keys and scales and how do I use them?

Thank you,

Justin
Click to expand...

Check out these links:

http://www.musictheory.net/
Link Removed

I think you'll find them very helpful.

Lloyd Howard

PS: If you're serious about becoming a knowledgeable and competent player, i.e. semi-pro level, then also seek out a good bass instructor. Learning to read is a good first step. Learning theory is a good augment to that. You'll find that other list members will, many times, be able to help even more if you fill out your profile.
 
#33
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vii mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics.
Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick learning is how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords.

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever.
 
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#34
I agree. Learning forever. Saying you've mastered music theory is saying you've memorized all of Webster's dictionary :)

I hate to say this, though, and flame me if you must. The run of the mill bass player (myself included) needs to know

1. 1,4,5 progression
2. Pentatonic scale (and blues scale)
3. Where the notes are from frets 1-5

If you listen to popular music now, I bet 75% of the music out there can fit that. I'm not talking about Dave Matthews, Rush, or Marcus Miller. :hiding:
 
#36
holy cow this is all so much more than i expected to get, this site rules! thank you very much guys, i have a ton to work with and will post back questions probably later tonight...i'll definitely be sitting at my computer reading some of this and experimenting, thanks again!
 
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#37
jsingles said:
true actually, but i haven't set my own personal goal at "run of the mill"
I am trying to get into jazz and be the best I can be, and without theory that will not happen.
Click to expand...

Oh, no, man, you are not run of the mill. I'm just talking about the masses :D

jbassist, sorry, man, we sort of hijacked this thread. Anything I can volunteer a performance major at UMass' expertise for? :)
 
#38
jsingles said:
Knowing theory can actually make your playing a lot less robotic. If you know more theory, you will know more of the options you have, and you will see more opportunities to play different things that you will understand fit into the context of your playing.

If you know very little theory, it will be easier to get stuck in a kind of rut, like be stuck just playing in one scale or position, as opposed to knowing how to move around your bass (particularly with walking bass parts)
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This is precisely why I am making myself learn theory and how to read, after playing guitar for 25 years and bass for 15....I got tired of being stuck in a rut (aka pentatonic hell.)
 
#39
jbassist17 said:
holy cow this is all so much more than i expected to get, this site rules! thank you very much guys, i have a ton to work with and will post back questions probably later tonight...i'll definitely be sitting at my computer reading some of this and experimenting, thanks again!
Click to expand...

you are very welcome! if there is anything else we can help you with please ask. :bassist:
 
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