I agree, sounds like a phase thing. I have a Peavey Tour 450 that I have used with an Avatar 115 and 210 @ 8ohm a cab, and had no problems keeping up with two guitarists. Drummers always commented on the how they liked the big sound that rig produced.
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I STILL fail at getting volume!!!!
- Thread starter Destructobot
- Start date
I agree, sounds like a phase thing. I have a Peavey Tour 450 that I have used with an Avatar 115 and 210 @ 8ohm a cab, and had no problems keeping up with two guitarists. Drummers always commented on the how they liked the big sound that rig produced.
Just a minor correction to the OP.
If you are running two 8 ohm cabs (4 ohm total), you are pushing up to 1250 watts (not 1600)
If you are running two 4 ohm cabs (2 ohm total), then you are pushing up to 1900 watts.
My personal opinion is that you are having serious issues either with your cabs or your hearing. Your last setup should have been more than enough, and now you also can't push a B1500 without clipping.
I own 2 B1500's and they absolutely kill. There is no way in hell that you have perfectly functioning cabs, cables, etc. and cannot get loud with that setup.
If you are running two 8 ohm cabs (4 ohm total), you are pushing up to 1250 watts (not 1600)
If you are running two 4 ohm cabs (2 ohm total), then you are pushing up to 1900 watts.
My personal opinion is that you are having serious issues either with your cabs or your hearing. Your last setup should have been more than enough, and now you also can't push a B1500 without clipping.
I own 2 B1500's and they absolutely kill. There is no way in hell that you have perfectly functioning cabs, cables, etc. and cannot get loud with that setup.
maybe the room your playing in. where we practice i have my gk 700 and avatar 210,peavey 115 setup cranked to keep up with guitards. we move outside or a bigroom and i have to cut my volume in half to get them to stop whining.
- Feb 16, 2008
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i don't think that the OP's hearing is the real issue since he said that the 100w marshall thru two 4x12's was just as loud as his bass amp. so, IMO, the problem lies in the cabs. they're either out of phase (possibly within each cab) the wrong impedance, or out of phase with each other. IMO, a 2x10 combined with a 2x12 isn't going to move the earth, but it should be able to get pretty darn loud with enough watts pushed thru them (and he does have enough watts).
Good point.
If it is not a cab issue (and I would strongly suggest going through each cabs wiring with a fine tooth comb), then it may be a room issue.
One place I practiced, I could never get any volume and never enough low end. Once I move my rig to a different place in the room, BOOM
There seems to exist a logical disconnect from reality in this thread.
Here's hoping somebody brings us back to the realm of reason - and fast.
OK, so you're pushing 1,600 watts into speakers rated at ... ? To get volume, you need lots of speakers. Good speakers. It doesn't matter how many watts of amp you have if you don't have speakers that are capable of handling the power.
The rule of thumb is 10 watts of bass per watt of guitar. So you need 1,000 watts of power at the speakers. A D-410XST is rated at a kilowatt, so start there and go up.
you may be pushing too much sub bass to get loud. first check your cabs for
polarity. its easy. plug a 1/4" cord into the first cab. grab the other end. touch
the tip to + of a 9v battery, shank to negative. watch the speaker cones, they
will most likely push outward. now do the same to the other cab. if both cones do not
push out, they are out of phase. if they are the same then you are ok.
now try cutting the sub bass a bit, & raise the low mids a bit...
polarity. its easy. plug a 1/4" cord into the first cab. grab the other end. touch
the tip to + of a 9v battery, shank to negative. watch the speaker cones, they
will most likely push outward. now do the same to the other cab. if both cones do not
push out, they are out of phase. if they are the same then you are ok.
now try cutting the sub bass a bit, & raise the low mids a bit...
+1.
This is either a phase problem (do the 9V test!!) or an expectation problem (listen to Munjibunga!!).
Enjoy.
Before going all bass gear..
Backup..
Your guitar player is using a Plexi?.. this is a tough one to go against.. these guys like to crank them to get to the sweet spot. .. recording studios run these in isolation booths.. I've heard of some that do this and they're still having track bleed in a different room.
I'd go the otherway --- get some type of attenuator between his head and cabinet. (I think they call the boxes a "hot plate?)
Installing more or bigger gear will just create more sound pressure/volume levels. - and your deafness
Remember the "sweet spot" hearing is a different issue than number of watts. I have a fairly tall stadium rig... my guitar players can commonly balance with me (at 30' in front of house) with 25 watt tube amps.
Back to the Plexi..
Backup..
Your guitar player is using a Plexi?.. this is a tough one to go against.. these guys like to crank them to get to the sweet spot. .. recording studios run these in isolation booths.. I've heard of some that do this and they're still having track bleed in a different room.
I'd go the otherway --- get some type of attenuator between his head and cabinet. (I think they call the boxes a "hot plate?)
Installing more or bigger gear will just create more sound pressure/volume levels. - and your deafness
Remember the "sweet spot" hearing is a different issue than number of watts. I have a fairly tall stadium rig... my guitar players can commonly balance with me (at 30' in front of house) with 25 watt tube amps.
Back to the Plexi..
Bite the bullet and buy the SVT, the amp all others are compared to when it comes right down to it: power and tone, it all there is spades. I've been using them since 1977 and have never found it necessary to use a different amp, maybe a B-15 or two almost always Ampeg SVT in different configurations. Also if the guitar head your frineds using in the basement is a 100 Marshall, you WILL need an SVT to keep up with him, those are greatest and loudest guitar amps commonly out there. Even 50 watters can be brutal in a great sounding way. Tube amps are much louder and thicker sounding compared to a SS amp watt for watt. i take my 300 watt Tube SVT head with it's 8x10 cab over most of the 1200 watt SS monster amps. SS amps just don't have the same presence that tube heads do and that translates into being able to hear it in the mix, make sure you have enough lo-mids too or you can get swallowed up easily by a Marshall.. SVT's were made to compete with Marshalls, nothing else really does.
OK. You have gotten some good advice here. I'm going to see if I can bring it all together. You really need to answer the following questions for us......
1) Are you SURE that you are using SPEAKER cables? A signal cable (a.k.a "guitar cable") is wrong, bad, no good, and.........still bad.
2) Have you done the stinking battery test to check for phasing problems?
3) ANY 100W guitar rig is going to be hard to keep up with. They need about 1/10 the power you do to move air. And most guitards don't understand that volume knobs turn to the left.
4) What is the OHM rating of your cabs? Are you running to each cab from two channels or did you bridge the rig and chain the speakers?
SOMETHING is NOT working correctly. Either one of your pieces of gear is messed up or there is some user error going on here. I find it VERY hard to believe that your whole rig is working properly and you can't hear yourself (unless that guitar rig is pointed at your head, and then you are just screwed......and going deaf as we speak). Good luck!
1) Are you SURE that you are using SPEAKER cables? A signal cable (a.k.a "guitar cable") is wrong, bad, no good, and.........still bad.
2) Have you done the stinking battery test to check for phasing problems?
3) ANY 100W guitar rig is going to be hard to keep up with. They need about 1/10 the power you do to move air. And most guitards don't understand that volume knobs turn to the left.
4) What is the OHM rating of your cabs? Are you running to each cab from two channels or did you bridge the rig and chain the speakers?
SOMETHING is NOT working correctly. Either one of your pieces of gear is messed up or there is some user error going on here. I find it VERY hard to believe that your whole rig is working properly and you can't hear yourself (unless that guitar rig is pointed at your head, and then you are just screwed......and going deaf as we speak). Good luck!
100w guitar amps can get loud enough to drown out a 210 and 212. Just going by some of my past experiences.
I'll downgrade to a 25w to balance.. still may have blistering highs for some botiquish stuff.
First off, the number of speakers you have pushing air directly relates to your volume. Also, 100 watts for a tube guitar amp (Marshall Plexi) is MASSIVE. Running that through eight 12" speakers = MASSIVE amount of sound. Bass frequencies require a lot more watts than mid range (re: guitar) - so you'll need a lot more wattage to keep up with 100 watts in a guitar amp. Also, even if you had the right amount of watts to compete, you'd want *at least* the same amount cone area moving - so you'd be looking at an 8x12 cab for bass - (do they make those?) - or at least an 8x10 capable of handling high wattage.
Next, I suspect your power amp might not be putting out full power - either b/c your preamp isn't matching up properly to it, or the amp itself is old and not performing up to par.
If you're playing in a room with a Marshall Plexi through a stack of 4x12 cabs, and you don't have serious ear protection, then yes, you probably are going deaf. It happens.
So if you want VOLUME, then turn DOWN the bass eq, and boost mids. If you want rumble, you're going to need a whole BUNCH of speakers.
Find out if your cabs are out of phase (an easy test). Make sure you're using speaker cables and not instrument cables (they look the same, but perform completely differently). Make sure your preamp is giving a hot enough signal to your power amp. Make sure your power amp is putting out the full wattage.
Also, try stacking your 2x10 cab on top the 2x12 cab vertically - get your speakers as high as possible.
Make sure your bass is putting out a strong signal.
Buy a sound meter, and properly test the volume output of your rig, and also of your friend's guitar rig. Come back with results of all of the above.
Btw - as an example of frequencies requiring different wattage to produce the same "volume" - I'm running a 15 watt solid state guitar amp through a 1x12 cab with my Strat (guitar) in a band. I have the volume up around 12 o' clock. Bass player uses a 200 watt amp, through a 4x10 and has the volume at about 1 o'clock. If I play my 15 watt amp through my 4x12 cab, I can turn the volume on the amp down a lot more and have the same overall volume as when I run a single 1x12 cab. I have thought about buying a 4 watt tube amp (Vox AC4) to run through a 2x12 cab for guitar. Again, b/c of the frequencies involved, AND the fact that these amps are rated by how loud they get before the signal distorts - and a tube amp for guitar you can run it "hotter" and overdrive the amp/signal and get a lot of volume out of a small amp. (play it through a single 8" speaker, and it will be quiet. play it through a 4x12 cab and it's gonna be loud.) I have played a 1/2 watt amp through my 4x12 cab and while it doesn't hold its own in a band setting, by itself it's enough to annoy the neighbors.
So, welcome to the world of bass - which is much different than guitar. To get really loud and low/bassy, you need TONS of watts and tons of speakers. And to do it right will cost some $$$. With guitar, you can crank a small 60 watt 1x12 combo amp that cost $300 new and cause your ears to ring for a week.
Next, I suspect your power amp might not be putting out full power - either b/c your preamp isn't matching up properly to it, or the amp itself is old and not performing up to par.
If you're playing in a room with a Marshall Plexi through a stack of 4x12 cabs, and you don't have serious ear protection, then yes, you probably are going deaf. It happens.
So if you want VOLUME, then turn DOWN the bass eq, and boost mids. If you want rumble, you're going to need a whole BUNCH of speakers.
Find out if your cabs are out of phase (an easy test). Make sure you're using speaker cables and not instrument cables (they look the same, but perform completely differently). Make sure your preamp is giving a hot enough signal to your power amp. Make sure your power amp is putting out the full wattage.
Also, try stacking your 2x10 cab on top the 2x12 cab vertically - get your speakers as high as possible.
Make sure your bass is putting out a strong signal.
Buy a sound meter, and properly test the volume output of your rig, and also of your friend's guitar rig. Come back with results of all of the above.
Btw - as an example of frequencies requiring different wattage to produce the same "volume" - I'm running a 15 watt solid state guitar amp through a 1x12 cab with my Strat (guitar) in a band. I have the volume up around 12 o' clock. Bass player uses a 200 watt amp, through a 4x10 and has the volume at about 1 o'clock. If I play my 15 watt amp through my 4x12 cab, I can turn the volume on the amp down a lot more and have the same overall volume as when I run a single 1x12 cab. I have thought about buying a 4 watt tube amp (Vox AC4) to run through a 2x12 cab for guitar. Again, b/c of the frequencies involved, AND the fact that these amps are rated by how loud they get before the signal distorts - and a tube amp for guitar you can run it "hotter" and overdrive the amp/signal and get a lot of volume out of a small amp. (play it through a single 8" speaker, and it will be quiet. play it through a 4x12 cab and it's gonna be loud.) I have played a 1/2 watt amp through my 4x12 cab and while it doesn't hold its own in a band setting, by itself it's enough to annoy the neighbors.
So, welcome to the world of bass - which is much different than guitar. To get really loud and low/bassy, you need TONS of watts and tons of speakers. And to do it right will cost some $$$. With guitar, you can crank a small 60 watt 1x12 combo amp that cost $300 new and cause your ears to ring for a week.
