I think I stop believing in expensive basses!

[Brad Johnson]

Please elaborate.

Sure. If you pay $2,000 for a bass, the only thing that is guaranteed, the only given is that you will have spent $2,000. Anything else is up to the bass gods. I won't name names... there have been plenty of high end bass horror stories to go around, some so ridiculous you wonder how on Earth someone could do something as lame as the builder did... especially for the money.

I'm seeing people saying that if you get a boutique bass (apparently it doesn't matter who the builder is, the price point is key) you will get better results than something that costs less. MAYBE. Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience in this market will know this is hogwash and if someone who doesn't know any better buys into it...



Heck, sometimes you don't even get your bass.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Brad, you as always, are on the nose. Like I said, at least for me the higher the price usually the better the feel.

Most luthiers take time and attention to neck finish, paint thicknesses, et cetera. The worst playing bass I ever had was a Korean B2Afl Hohner Steiney copy. The lacquer on the neck was poor and whatever it was, the second you had a micron of moisture on your fingers you stuck to the neck like glue, so moving around the bass was a chore.

Obviously, I can do many things to tweak even the crappiest bass, like sand off the finish on the neck, or have a nice refret, etc.

I think you also said it best, its about what the bass does for you. Clearly my Brubaker has amazing tonal capability, so I can kill through any live mix. Of course, playing with a pick and spending most of my time making dough below the 5th fret, the ability of my bass far exceeds the ability of me.

I have played Sadowskys, and recently I was blessed to use an Alleva-Coppola for a week in the studio. The dude just got it right. The feel and ease of playing that 5 was, for me, far and away maybe the most comfortable Jazz style 5 string, with the exception of the Bru JXB-5, I've felt in a long time. The sound, well, not much different then a vintage J bass, but that is exactly what it is aimed at being.

In America today, boutique builders have added government regulation to cope with, and that automatically takes a bass that maybe they could build for a couple of bucks and adds a factor of 10 before they even sketch out anything. Cataloging exotic woods alone, all the paperwork involved with the new law takes about 8 hours per piece or lot when its all said and done. So, even at minimum wage, that is $60 in cost for a bass and all you have is a stack of wood. Which, by the way, is what the delivered cost of an SX is for Rondo.

The one outstanding feature that you get from boutique, that you rarely get from lesser, is the customer service. I have had the luck to know many of the builders, and while each may have their own individual personalities, they all have been attentive and accommodating to their customers, for the life of the instruments.

If you take an SX, and, doing all the work yourself, do a regret, change out the hardware and swap the pickups you have at least $350 in parts and at least 12 hours of labor in it. Since the normal auto mechanic charges at least $50 per hour, I'm going to use that as the measuring stick. So, you now have $600 of labor and $350 in parts, so your $150 SX just became an $1100 dollar bass. Is it as good as a bass that normally retails for $1100? MAYBE, but probably not. Will it play or sound as good or better? It very well could. Because when you do the work, you are going to take your time and care with whatever you do, not just slap it together. Which is what a good luthier does.

 

[mongo2]

If you take an SX, and, doing all the work yourself, do a regret, change out the hardware and swap the pickups you have at least $350 in parts and at least 12 hours of labor in it.

I'm very particular about fretwork and the most I've ever had to do to my 2 SX SS Js was to dress the fret ends. It took me about 20 minutes for each of them so that's well under an hour.

The pickups work fine as does the hardware so they didn't require swapping out. I chose to put Barts in one of them just to see what it sounded like but it wasn't necessary. The other one still has the OEM pickups.

 

[malthumb]

Sure. If you pay $2,000 for a bass, the only thing that is guaranteed, the only given is that you will have spent $2,000. ........

Heck, sometimes you don't even get your bass.

I get what you are saying here, but I think there is an additional dimension. That is the LIKELIHOOD that you get what you perceive to be your money's worth. And the most apparent measure of that is the luthier's / manufacturer's ability to consistently get their price for the instrument. Guys who've been around a while, like Mike Tobias in all his various incarnations, Ken Smith, the Wickershams, Roger Sadowsky, and Chris Stambaugh have satisfied enough customers that they have plenty of repeats and plenty of referrals and to my knowledge, none of them is hurting for business. There are others of course, but these come to mind quickly. Add Roscoe and Fodera to the list. That would lead me to believe that the likelihood of getting a great instrument is higher with them than with someone I'd never heard of.

Back in 2004 I took a chance on a luthier I had never heard of to make a bass to someone else's design, my specs. I was nervous. To cut to the quick, 8 years later i still have the bass and will probably gig with it tonight. The luthier did have to make some changes to the electronics a few months after I got it (I specced the original electronics, so I got what I asked for and didn't like it). A few years into it, the frets started lifting, so I had them replaced. Now it's sweet. I was lucky. It could've been a basket case.

 

[lucas vigor]

Sure. If you pay $2,000 for a bass, the only thing that is guaranteed, the only given is that you will have spent $2,000. Anything else is up to the bass gods. I won't name names... there have been plenty of high end bass horror stories to go around, some so ridiculous you wonder how on Earth someone could do something as lame as the builder did... especially for the money.

I'm seeing people saying that if you get a boutique bass (apparently it doesn't matter who the builder is, the price point is key) you will get better results than something that costs less. MAYBE. Anyone with a reasonable amount of experience in this market will know this is hogwash and if someone who doesn't know any better buys into it...



Heck, sometimes you don't even get your bass.

The only thing that is clear to me is that you have a lot of support on this forum, and I don't. You are considered one of the bass gods on this forum, and I am not. That means that automatically whatever you post is pretty much taken as fact by most people here. That's ok, I have seen this type of activity before on this forum. Your snarky, condescending and insulting responses to my posts are actually perfectly fine and I could not disagree more.
I believe, that in general, expensive, boutique and hi-end basses are better. The majority of the pro bass playing world (including magazines and other media) seem to agree with me, and the information I have seen over the years confirms it to me, and runs counter to every thing I see posted on this forum. Time and time again, when they are profiling artists in BP magazine, and they have that little box which lists their gear used, you DO NOT see squires and SX basses being used. Yeah, it's true they don't all use Alembics.....but what they are using is mid-level to hi-end gear. Pretty much consistently.
I may not play like Jaco, or be a popular TB poster like you, but you are not talking to some bass noob here. It is quite possible I may have even been playing bass longer then you, though I don't have the talkbass credentials you have.
Bottom line? Quality matters. Just like one other poster just said, those boutique builders are bass experts, not rip-off artists making fine furniture. If you choose to believe that, fine. But remember, few of those builders actually bother to post here (knowing the futility of trying to convince all you "experts"), and this was in fact the forum that banned both Ken Smith and Jeff Berlin, people whose opinions I would rather read then yours.

 

[JACink]

The only thing that is clear to me is that you have a lot of support on this forum, and I don't. You are considered one of the bass gods on this forum, and I am not.

 

[metron]

Truly mind blowing. Has this thread reached HoF status yet?

 

[mongo2]

 

[SteveC]

I think this thread has finally broken me of the desire to participate in any more this vs. that threads or which bass would you choose or whatever. To each their own. I don't care if you play a Squier. You shouldn't care if I play something else. And if to you they sound the same, whatever. If to me I hear, see, feel a difference, whatever.

I'm done with these ridiculous threads.

Thanks!

 

[JACink]

I think this thread has finally broken me of the desire to participate in any more this vs. that threads or which bass would you choose or whatever. To each their own. I don't care if you play a Squier. You shouldn't care if I play something else. And if to you they sound the same, whatever. If to me I hear, see, feel a difference, whatever.

I'm done with these ridiculous threads.

Thanks!

DOn't leave now, part II is just around the corner!!

 

[Brad Johnson]

I get what you are saying here, but I think there is an additional dimension. That is the LIKELIHOOD that you get what you perceive to be your money's worth. And the most apparent measure of that is the luthier's / manufacturer's ability to consistently get their price for the instrument. Guys who've been around a while, like Mike Tobias in all his various incarnations, Ken Smith, the Wickershams, Roger Sadowsky, and Chris Stambaugh have satisfied enough customers that they have plenty of repeats and plenty of referrals and to my knowledge, none of them is hurting for business. There are others of course, but these come to mind quickly. Add Roscoe and Fodera to the list. That would lead me to believe that the likelihood of getting a great instrument is higher with them than with someone I'd never heard of.

Back in 2004 I took a chance on a luthier I had never heard of to make a bass to someone else's design, my specs. I was nervous. To cut to the quick, 8 years later i still have the bass and will probably gig with it tonight. The luthier did have to make some changes to the electronics a few months after I got it (I specced the original electronics, so I got what I asked for and didn't like it). A few years into it, the frets started lifting, so I had them replaced. Now it's sweet. I was lucky. It could've been a basket case.

Everything you say is on point. Here's my fundamental problem with the "Here's what you'll get with a boutique bass" edict...

There are a lot of boutique builders. A lot. And IME despite possibly good intent, they don't ALL have their act together.

That's my point. Practically guaranteeing what you'll get in a boutique vs. off the shelf build is nuts. If the person had done the more realistic thing and NARROWED it down to folks with a track record like the ones you mentioned I wouldn't have uttered a word. Instead the broad brush and the big bucket slung a load that IMO was misleading and/or naive at the least. And I've seen guys who had decent reputations here who took people's money and didn't deliver. Or changed specs willy nilly for various reasons and let the customer find out upon delivery.

Now maybe I'm the only one who's noticed these things but I seriously doubt it. And as I said, it's not necessarily always the builder's fault. Sometimes, to be accomodating, they do things that a customer thinks they want and the results are... yeesh would be a kind way to put it.

On more than one occassion I've received/played basses that I truly wondered how did this guy let this go out like this. Even builders I've had great experiences with. Builders are numerous and above all else they are human so to think that anything about them as a whole is a certainty flies in the face of real life experience. That's my point.

 

[WoodyG3]

I'm not sure what all the disagreement is, here.

Do we all agree that MOST inexpensive basses like Squiers are made at a reasonably high quality standard these days, and are just fine for gigging or recording?

Do we all agree that you GENERALLY get higher quality when you spend more, albeit at a rate of diminishing returns?

Do we all agree that MUCH of the the time boutique builders offer extremely high quality and a high level of customer support?

Can we all assume that there are NO ABSOLUTES in any of this, and that there are exceptions to these generalizations?

Probably not. Then what would we have to argue about...

 

[WoodyG3]

...
Now maybe I'm the only one who's noticed these things but I seriously doubt it. And as I said, it's not necessarily always the builder's fault. Sometimes, to be accomodating, they do things that a customer thinks they want and the results are... yeesh would be a kind way to put it....:

This is part of the reason why many builders limit options, I think. People might whine a little that this builder or that is not truly a "custom" builder because they won't build just anything the customer wants. A builder needs to think of their reputation.

 

[lucas vigor]

I'm not sure what all the disagreement is, here.

Do we all agree that MOST inexpensive basses like Squiers are made at a reasonably high quality standard these days, and are just fine for gigging or recording?

Do we all agree that you GENERALLY get higher quality when you spend more, albeit at a rate of diminishing returns?

Do we all agree that MUCH of the the time boutique builders offer extremely high quality and a high level of customer support?

Can we all assume that there are NO ABSOLUTES in any of this, and that there are exceptions to these generalizations?

Probably not. Then what would we have to argue about...

I agree that some Squires and SXs, after modifications, are adequate for recording. But I disagree that they are inspiring instruments, or in any way have a special quality to them.

I agree that GENERALLY, the more you spend, the more you get, in terms of quality.

I agree that MUCH of the time, Boutique builders pretty much nail it. I trust both their products, thier reputations and the fact that you see thier work being used by excellent, pro bass players like Matt Garrison, Victor Wooten, Richard Bona and Jimmy haslip.

I agree that there are no absolutes, and that it is possible that there are some boutique basses I would not like. It also is possible I may like a Squire someone hands me. But to this date, and after 35 years of playing, I never have. And yes, I was able to try one of the VM Squires lately. The strings were hanging an inch of the FB at the 12 fret. The neck was curved like a banana. With a set up, I am sure it would be playable...but it did not give me any gas factor.

 

[JACink]

This is part of the reason why many builders limit options, I think. People might whine a little that this builder or that is not truly a "custom" builder because they won't build just anything the customer wants. A builder needs to think of their reputation.

I have experienced this problem on various ocasions, not in the custom bass field, but definately in the audio industry, and I can tell you that it is always the builder/engineer/installer´s fault no matter what.

When a client askes for something totally stupid, if you refuse, then they say that they are the customer and you are refusing to do as they ask. If you agree, when it sounds awful, then you should have never agreed to do it!!

It's always a no win situation!

 

[David Jayne]

...., to answer your question about WHAT basses I am talking about...I will use a couple of Pedullas I tried out as an example. They were superior basses to everything that was in that store that I tried that day. Incredible basses. Works of art. Anyone who has played one knows exactly WFT I am talking about. Sorry, but no Squire or SX has ever, will ever, could ever make me feel the same way as that pedulla did.

Well, there you go. OTOH, I've owned three Pedullas and only ever cared for one of them, which I still own. The Pentabuzz needed truss rod adjustments nearly every week, and had a nasty looking knot in the neck wood right at the heel. The MPV4 was clanky and unpleasant sounding. The one I kept, a Thunderbass5, needs frequent truss rod adjustments, even 14 years later.
My Fenders, and parts clones kill them in every way. You just never know, no matter the cost.

 

[grinx]

You'd think
That people would have had enough of silly bass threads
But I look around me and I see it isn't so
Some people wanna fill the world with silly bass threads

And what's wrong with that ?
I'd like to know
'cause here we go againnnnnnnnn........

 

[GlennW]

Thread On The Run...

 

[Brad Johnson]

The only thing that is clear to me is that you have a lot of support on this forum, and I don't. You are considered one of the bass gods on this forum, and I am not. That means that automatically whatever you post is pretty much taken as fact by most people here. That's ok, I have seen this type of activity before on this forum. Your snarky, condescending and insulting responses to my posts are actually perfectly fine and I could not disagree more.

I have no doubt that that is the only thing that is clear to you.

I think that if some people agree with me (and frankly you'd have to be blind to not see how many don't on a regular basis ) it's likely because I tend to not deal in hyperbole and big sweeping statements that have a ton of exceptions. That helps no one... which begs the obvious question: what exactly is your point? Are you trying to perpetuate this self-confessed resentment you've had for years towards people who don't deserve gear by putting people who are happy with affordable gear in their place? They're polar opposites.

I've seen what you're saying... I don't get your point. I've seen you on these rants for a long time now and I honestly wondered if you were attacked by an SX or something along those lines (of course I'm joking, inanimate objects rarely attack ). For a couple of you guys, whenever there's an opportunity to crack on SXes, you have at it. Sometimes when there's no rational reason to even bring them up. What is this power SX owners have that I'm not seeing.


If someone genuinely likes an SX, the problem is...

I believe, that in general, expensive, boutique and hi-end basses are better. The majority of the pro bass playing world (including magazines and other media) seem to agree with me, and the information I have seen over the years confirms it to me, and runs counter to every thing I see posted on this forum. Time and time again, when they are profiling artists in BP magazine, and they have that little box which lists their gear used, you DO NOT see squires and SX basses being used. Yeah, it's true they don't all use Alembics.....but what they are using is mid-level to hi-end gear. Pretty much consistently.
I may not play like Jaco, or be a popular TB poster like you, but you are not talking to some bass noob here. It is quite possible I may have even been playing bass longer then you, though I don't have the talkbass credentials you have.

My guess is that you can't see how seriously slanted your view is. You mention Jaco and I guess ignore the fact that he made his bones on a beat to crap Fender. You think that what you read in magazines proves something which is again naive and I seriously don't mean that in an offensive way. I mean it's someone who for whatever reason doesn't really know any better than to buy into what's being sold to them.

The vast majority of pros don't end up in magazines and neither do their gear lists. People with endorsements often get their gear for free and while you might see what they use as a positive, I see folks who don't put their money into using what they like vs. what they're given as of no value to me. But I'm looking at the big picture vs. thinking most ads/magazine features I see prove something.

Bottom line? Quality matters. Just like one other poster just said, those boutique builders are bass experts, not rip-off artists making fine furniture. If you choose to believe that, fine. But remember, few of those builders actually bother to post here (knowing the futility of trying to convince all you "experts"), and this was in fact the forum that banned both Ken Smith and Jeff Berlin, people whose opinions I would rather read then yours.

Again, given what I've seen in the past and what you've revealed in this thread, I am not the least bit surprised. With your attitude towards SX it's also not surprising how hypocritical you seem to be when it comes down to seeing condescension. You've let what appears to be a sour experience early in life cloud things to an amazing degree.

I can't help that you apparently choose your words poorly. Saying that boutique builders are experts is just plain silly. Some are, some think they are and some build what some consider to be pretty things that ultimately don't function all that well as musical instruments. They don't all fit into one checkbox.

If you have only seen happy results with all boutique builders, cool. As I said I'd chalk that up to a lack of experience with a large sampling of that segment or being very easy to please and not very critical examination coupled with not talking to the luthiers you know and asking them if their experiences coincidence with your beliefs (my money is firmly on "Heck no").

There's plenty of documented issues with boutique basses right here on Talkbass. Luthiers sometimes have to do followup work on basses with problems because... THERE WERE PROBLEMS. And sometimes they address them and sometimes they don't.

There are luthiers who stand behind their work and unfortunately there are some that don't. Don't believe me? Ask around.

 

[Immigrant]

I have experienced this problem on various ocasions, not in the custom bass field, but definately in the audio industry, and I can tell you that it is always the builder/engineer/installer´s fault no matter what.

When a client askes for something totally stupid, if you refuse, then they say that they are the customer and you are refusing to do as they ask. If you agree, when it sounds awful, then you should have never agreed to do it!!

It's always a no win situation!

True. Compromise is a considered a lose-lose resolution. It's up to the builder to set standards they practice and the buyer can work within them or try to find a builder that will do what they want, within reason of course.

The builder of my baby on the way had his plans for the bass before I contacted him and he was flexible enough to allow feedback on what I wanted in a custom, even though it was nearly what I wanted to begin with.

I'm probably the worst bass player who posts here, but that's not reason enough to want a super cool instrument. I watched the OP's video (double bass) and I can't do that. I'd rather be a really good bassist and play whatever I could afford rather than own tons of nice custom gear, which is what I am currently. Currently.