Double Bass I Thought I'd Seen Everything

[Ric Vice]

You're correct. Wow, well I guess that's the price you have to
pay if you're not willing to wait on Walter. I know someone who
just got a brand new Ultra in 6 weeks from Walter. Go figure.

Ric

 

[drurb]

I agree with Tom on this. Also, since many players are not 'gear head's' like some of us , there's a lack of awareness of the current state of amplification and speakers.... gone are the days when the Walter was the only small, good sounding game in town (see AI, Markbass, Thunderfunk, Eden550, Epifani502, EAiAmp500, etc. ... and gone are the days when you had to settle for a low efficiency cab like the old EA's and Acme's to get decent low end out of a small cab (see Accugroove Tri112, Epifani112UL, EA NL210, GKNeo, LDS2x8, etc, etc., etc.)... not that there's anything wrong with those older cabs... but there's so much other great stuff out there now... much of it at reasonable prices.

This strikes me as emminently sensible. Coming from decades in the hi-fi end of things, it is the case that power-amplifier technology has progressed to an almost asymptotic state. Sure, you can buy esoteric multi-thousand-$$$ amps but it's not clear you get all that much extra bang for the buck.

Okay, I have NO first-hand experience with WW and do not claim any expertise with regard to his products. Amps that are over-engineered and built with high-quality parts always seem worth a premium because they will be reliable. That said, and I am sincerely, ASKING, is there really any objective evidence that the WW amps are sonically superior to the best of today's modern designs? Specifically, over and above the mystique and the cache of owning a very special and limited-availability product (which I certainly understand and appreciate), why would one not buy one of the finer (NOT JUNK) commercial products and, if it breaks in 10 years, buy another? It seems you'd be ahead in terms of $$$.

By the way, given state-of-the-art fabrication techniques, I really do not see much advantage in hand-wiring, per se.

Now before you all descend upon me with flame-throwers, please realize that:

1) I am asking sincere questions.

2) I am NOT trashing WW.

3) I am a (hi-fi) hobbyist and even own some amplifiers just because.

 

[Ric Vice]

DURB,
I have owned Walter Woods amps since 1979. At that time. as you probably know, "solid state" amps that were produced by Ampeg, Fender, and others were a dismal falure. Then Walter comes along with a $600.00 amp that sounds great and weighs in at 7 lbs. It was something of a revelation back then.

Now we move foward to 2005, and as Ken so eliquently states, there are many options that cost far less then a new Walter Woods. My only "objective" evidence are my rather "subjective" ears. Just two weeks ago Ken was visiting town, and we did a "practice room" comparison of the Walter Woods Ultra to a Focus Series II. The Woods had a noticibly better sound through the same cabinet than the Focus did. However, this was not a "on the job" comparison where some one listens while you play with a actual band.

What we noticed, was that the Woods had much more presence in the midrange than the Focus did, and as you move up the bass kneck, into what is obstenisibly the solo register i.e. thumb position the treble has a very "bell like" quality. There is also
a great deal of sensitivity in the entire pre amp tone control section vs the Focus. Just tweaking the knob on one of the tone
controls yeilds pretty dramatically different timbers. The Focus is
a really nice amp, but it dosen't have that capability.

That said, it costs@ $2,400.00 for the Walter Woods Ultra these days and there is a minimum 6 week wating time before you can get one . A brand new Series III Focus is $1,199.00 and you can buy a older model for less. Wheather a Walter Woods is worth $1,200.00 more than a Focus is a pretty debatable issue. With me it's the Walter Woods because I own two of them. When I bought them neither the Focus or the iAMP existed.

Ric

PS. You can PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[macmrkt]

My 1 cent - WW Ultra is exactly $2249 plus shipping. Focus III 2 channel (so you can compare 2 channel versions) is $1399 at lowest selling discount. About an $850 swing. My other 1 cent is on the sound. Taken in audiophile parlance...a new Focus I either in single or dual channel sounded "veiled" compared to a new WW Super. By the way, the Super is plenty powerful, more akin to the Focus and makes the difference only $400 and change.

 

[drurb]

DURB,
...There is also
a great deal of sensitivity in the entire pre amp tone control section vs the Focus. Just tweaking the knob on one of the tone
controls yeilds pretty dramatically different timbers. The Focus is
a really nice amp, but it dosen't have that capability.


Ric

...

Ah, the pre-amp. Now there is where there certainly is likey to be substantial differences. An intelligent choice of tone-control (filter) center-frequency, Q (width), and "shelving" certainly can make all the difference in the world. By the way, I didn't mean to imply earlier that all power amps are the same. Even among premiere hi-fi amps, there are differences to be heard. Why? Well, among other things, because some designs are more immune to load (speaker) interactions than others. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[B String]

I'm not sure how seriously we should be taking this thread now. This is like my gearhead friends who actually ask me
why I even own a Fender P Bass, when I have basses
costing $3,000. that do more of everything sound wise.
BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE MUSIC TO OUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Walter Woods amps have a sound. If that is the sound you
hear in your head, then THATS IT! $200. or $2,000. it makes
no difference, thats the sound. If I like the sound of a
17th century french bass, it dosen't matter if I can get a
great Pollman for half the price. My ear wants the french
bass. If you love a Woods, its not the money making the
sound. There will always be a segment of the market who
can't hear a damn thing but want the status of the name.
You can't stop that either. If you don't like the price of a
Woods, or if you hear something else you like as much,
buy it, or don't, but I'm now missing the point of this thread.

 

[drurb]

I'm not sure how seriously we should be taking this thread now. This is like my gearhead friends who actually ask me
why I even own a Fender P Bass, when I have basses
costing $3,000. that do more of everything sound wise.
BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE MUSIC TO OUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Walter Woods amps have a sound. If that is the sound you
hear in your head, then THATS IT! $200. or $2,000. it makes
no difference, thats the sound. If I like the sound of a
17th century french bass, it dosen't matter if I can get a
great Pollman for half the price. My ear wants the french
bass. If you love a Woods, its not the money making the
sound. There will always be a segment of the market who
can't hear a damn thing but want the status of the name.
You can't stop that either. If you don't like the price of a
Woods, or if you hear something else you like as much,
buy it, or don't, but I'm now missing the point of this thread.

Here's the point. The discussion centers around what it is about the WW design/circuit that can or does create a special "sound."
I doubt many are in a position to say that cost is no object, as seems to be the case for you. Unless one is independently wealthy, it is important to know if the differences you think you hear are real and if your preferences can be satisfied by other choices. I am reminded of the hi-fi tube heads who just had to have the "sound" of their multi-thousand-$$$ amps. Bob Carver locked himself in a hotel room and, over a weekend, emulated the transfer function with a much less costly soild-state circuit. No one could tell the difference.

Now hold on-- I am NOT claiming that the differences heard with a WW are not real. I am also not claiming that, to this date, the "sound" and performance of a WW can be achieved with other products. Trying to get such information was the point. Got it?

 

[B String]

I must have lost sight of your intent. For some finding
"the" sound is an addiction. For others it's status. The
thread seemed to be turning into a why buy Woods
with all these other great heads on the market. They
all sound different. They may or may not be your cup of tea.

 

[Tbeers]

The WW also escapes quality control issues. Some AI products have that tiny little hiss when you plug them into a cabinet. The WW doesn't. But that's being downright nitpicky!

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm not sure how seriously we should be taking this thread now. This is like my gearhead friends who actually ask me why I even own a Fender P Bass, when I have basses
costing $3,000. that do more of everything sound wise.
BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE MUSIC TO OUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Walter Woods amps have a sound. If that is the sound you
hear in your head, then THATS IT! $200. or $2,000. it makes
no difference, thats the sound.

They say confession is good for the soul, so here goes.
In my "carreer" as a professional musician, I've owned eight amps. An Ampeg B-15 N, a Walter Woods MI 100, a Roland Cube, a Gallien Krueger Series I, Series II, and MBE 150, a Walter Woods MI 400, and a Walter Woods Ultra High Power. Of all those amplifiers, I still have the Walter Woods MI 400, and the Walter Woods Ultra and hopefully I'll never have to buy another one. If that situation arises, I would attempt to get the cash together for another Walter Woods first, because they are my personal and professional favorites IMHO they sound better than any other amp.
A close friend of mine recently made another astute observation based on his knowledge of small buisness profits. Walter can only make so many amplifiers each year. So, as far as we can tell, he is making a decent living selling amplifiers, but he isn't getting rich by any means, even selling them at $2,249.00 a pop.
I own a 1958 Fender Precision Bass so I can relate to the
"Wonderful Sound" that bass produces, it is unique and so is the Walter Woods. To me Walter Woods are very much akin to NAD
stereo equiptment, "sounds better and it's worth it"

Ric

 

[B String]

I still don't understand how NAD was able to make the 3020,
and 3015's for the amount they cost, and no other company
at the time could come close. I still have my 3020 in my
office. Its never even been in the shop. Its not always about
cost, although NAD was the cheapest audiophile gear
availible at the time. It just flat out sounded marvelous.
Sometimes a piece of gear is just special. Its not about
cost. Woods amps are different. If you gotta have it, you'll
find a way to get it. Unfortunately they are too expensive
for me right now, and I'm practically in walking distance of
Walter. I've known him since 1980.

 

[Uncletoad]

If you don't like the price of a
Woods, or if you hear something else you like as much,
buy it, or don't, but I'm now missing the point of this thread.

Perhaps more to the original point. I guess the recent eBay trend in WW amps is yet another example of the market eating itself. Walter's unusual telephone practices, inconsistent waiting list, high demand, short supply, and untrue rumours of his demise have led people to escalate the prices on his work. eBay's auction format has accelerated the escalation of those prices to laughable levels in less than 12 months.

The same problem has occurred with many collectible and asset value items that consumers swarm around. Vintage instruments and antiques are things I've been interested in long before eBay. While eBay has made those things much easier to get, it also make them much more expensive overall when found. So personally I have loved and hated eBay simultaneously. I like what it can bring to my front door but hate what I have to pay for it.

It seems to me that there are very few "deals" to be found on eBay these days. The market has swollen way to big. Competition is huge. You must be incredibly savvy to get the diamond in the rough that most interested parties miss. Instead of hunting for items experienced collectors hunt for inaccurate listings or procedural errors. I'm sure there are always exceptions but they are just that, exceptions.

The WW phenomenon will probably disintegrate at some point when folks move on to the the next "happening thing". Reminds me of the cigar boom. Tons of dollars spent on mediocre product. When the flavor of the month folks bow out we who are left have to live with the inflated prices until the supply outruns the demand and everyone returns to sanity.

Having said that, His amps are outstanding. I'd rather give him the dough than someone else. If you want a WWU call him repeatedly and talk his ear off when you get through to him. I'll bet if he thinks you are an artist and truly appreciate what he does and have cash ready to send overnight you'll find the list shorter than you think.

 

[B String]

Well put Phil. I agree. Woods amps on the used market
used to be just that. A used amp. They've always held
value well, but not in the rediculous way they are now.