IEM for Bass Players

[drpepper]

Thanks so much for the detailed and thoughtful reply! Actually, the PR1 Pro is another model I was curious about but I haven’t seen much of a body of useful reviews online specific to pro audio or live sound, mostly the reviews are specific to pre-recorded music. How do you find them different from the ZS10’s?

The sense of not being physically aware of my IEMs is probably exactly how I would describe ideal ergonomics as well fwiw.

I posted another thread here with more complete PR1 impressions (which are also only listening impressions so far, so probably not as generally informative as practiced reviewers) but the Cliff notes, imprecise language version is that in comparison the the CCA C10 Pro (same model as KZ ZS10 Pro) version is that as someone who doesn't spend a great deal of time comparing and contrasting IEMs, I found them to have an immediately notable different character that's generally more detailed, clear, warm and natural sounding with bass/sub-bass that seems more full and capable of going lower.

I'll bring them to an in-ear rehearsal tomorrow where I stand directly next to the drum kit and that will tell me a bit more about them. My final judgement will only be a matter of if I would carry them as backups. I've never used the C10s for a full gig...in terms of trying them for live music, I used them for one rehearsal and a set on stage. For me, by direct comparison to the Westones I was using at the time, they didn't have the same level of isolation and felt bulky and ever-present.

My personal belief is that the impact of small and even some more significant differences in details of how one IEM sounds versus another are mitigated and sometimes eliminated in live playing situations (the great equalizer IMO). For example, in listening and reaching to define differences between them, I might find the C10s more capable or even preferable, but on stage, the lower isolation means running them louder and the bulky and present feeling, while not out and out discomfort, which combined, make the Westones preferable for me by a pretty good margin. For learning songs, play along practice and some rehearsals, the C10s are fine.

That said, I think we become accustomed to the fit, feel, seal and isolation of IEMs that we regularly use, and in a case like yours, of being happy with the ZS10s that you use and are completely used to, a move that's a step backward in any of those areas is going to be a net negative.

It's been said a million times here that ears vary greatly in contours and canal diameters. If the KZs fit and seal well for you, you're in a good, median spot and that brings you full-circle to an argument probably in favor of just standing pat.

 

[tomilchik]

I’m an IEM newbie, ready to make a jump.
Can no longer deal with sonic assault/mush/mud on small stages with wedges.
But - confused. Hopefully this community can shed some light.
Got Shure 535s; test-ran them at home.
1st impression: as far as low frequencies go - they are not even close (and I mean - 100 miles) to Apple AirPods Pro. Many mentions here of “good bass definition”; but what I’m hearing is sound devoid of lows, very mid-hi rangey. Voices come through clear, but low end - bass, kick - not at all.
IEMs fit: tucked them in as snugly as possible.
What am I missing?!?!

 

[Fun Size Nick]

I’m an IEM newbie, ready to make a jump.
Can no longer deal with sonic assault/mush/mud on small stages with wedges.
But - confused. Hopefully this community can shed some light.
Got Shure 535s; test-ran them at home.
1st impression: as far as low frequencies go - they are not even close (and I mean - 100 miles) to Apple AirPods Pro. Many mentions here of “good bass definition”; but what I’m hearing is sound devoid of lows, very mid-hi rangey. Voices come through clear, but low end - bass, kick - not at all.
IEMs fit: tucked them in as snugly as possible.
What am I missing?!?!

Assuming that the source audio signal has bass in it, this sounds for all the world like a lack of seal. when you say 'as snugly as possible', do you mean 'like an earplug'? Because that's how they should fit - you should feel (and hear) like your ear is completely blocked. If it's a foam tip, you should squeeze it and insert - you should hear and feel the tips sealing against your ear canal as they expand.

Ideally I would recommend experimenting with different tips - for me, the single flange rubber tips that come with Shure IEMs don't work at all. The foam tips are better but they have to be the right size for your ear (I have a small in one ear and a medium in the other). I have Comply foam tips (two different sizes) in my backup/general listening KZ earbuds and they work a treat.

 

[drpepper]

...low end - bass, kick - not at all.
IEMs fit: tucked them in as snugly as possible.

I'd generally agree with @Fun Size Nick that the likelihood would seem to be that you aren't getting a proper seal. Bass response is absolutely dependent on seal and from posts that we see from time to time (like now) is something that can be difficult to convey in a post.

Where my opinion would differ is that I believe that most statements about tips should be qualified with for me...as in X tips work better for me (not inherently or for everyone).

Ear canals can differ quite broadly. They're not generally round but a more oval or very rounded rectangular shape. Typically ear canals are taller than wide with height ranging (depending on the source) from 5.5mm to 16.5mm and width from 3mm to 9.5mm. Universal fit IEMs have round nozzles and round tips with diameters for nozzles tending to fall anywhere between 1.5mm and 6.5mm and tip outer diameters being from very roughly 8mm to 14mm. Taking in the numbers, you'll realize that there are some IEMs that won't even fit in some ears, and the are ears than cannot likely be filled by any standard tips.

Shure IEMs have a narrow nozzle (1.5 or 2mm afaik), which means that regardless of which tip you're using, you're going to be depending on the largest amount of tip material for your seal. This can be a positive or negative. A positive is that either foam or silicone tips have the greatest opportunity to conform to your ear canals. But if you have highly atypically shaped canals or they are at the extreme high end of the diameter range, that could mean that there isn't necessarily a universal tip size that will work for you...the tip material simply cannot eliminate all voids.

All that said, assuming that some universal size/material/configuration will work for you, finding out which one works best will require some experimentation. Foam tips work best for some people's ears and silicone tips work better for other people's ears. With silicone tips, there are double and triple flange tips that are found by some to provide the best seal and bass response.

It's likely that your IEMs came with a small assortment of tips...try them all, and it sounds like you may need to go beyond the tips that were included.

If you're using foam tips, it's important to compress the material by rolling it between your fingers, inserting and then allowing a moment for the material to expand. If you do this and don't get a good seal, you need a larger outer diameter and possibly a longer tip.

You say that the fit is as snug as possible, but without experience, it's possible that fitting inside your ears but not truly or fully conforming to the the shape could be mistaken for as snug as possible when it's not.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

Where my opinion would differ is that I believe that most statements about tips should be qualified with for me...as in X tips work better for me (not inherently or for everyone).

I was pretty sure I put a ‘for me’ in my post

Brilliant detail in this, and very true that there are some ear canals that have a hard time with universal earbuds - hopefully this is not the case for this person (if apple AirPod pros work for them then they can probably find a set of tips that fit). There’s nothing like custom earbuds of course!

 

[drpepper]

I was pretty sure I put a ‘for me’ in my post

You are correct, fun size sir. Apologies, I'm so used to not seeing that part that focusing on the last part of the sentence, I missed it when it was there.

 

[s0c9]

I’m an IEM newbie, ready to make a jump.
Can no longer deal with sonic assault/mush/mud on small stages with wedges.
But - confused. Hopefully this community can shed some light.
Got Shure 535s; test-ran them at home.
1st impression: as far as low frequencies go - they are not even close (and I mean - 100 miles) to Apple AirPods Pro. Many mentions here of “good bass definition”; but what I’m hearing is sound devoid of lows, very mid-hi rangey. Voices come through clear, but low end - bass, kick - not at all.
IEMs fit: tucked them in as snugly as possible.
What am I missing?!?!

My guess is that it's pretty simple.
The difference is NOT lack of seal in this case (but it USUALLY is the main culprit)!

You listened to the same music on both sets of buds, but you are not factoring in that:
The AP Pro's have hyped bass/high-end response .. the old smiley-curve EQ built-in, whereas the 535's have a flat response (no internal EQ)! Hence your experience with "sound devoid of lows, very mid-hi rangey."

For live use, if you need more bass, increase the bass channel mix level.
You'll get a better "mix" to hear with the 535's because they'll replicate the audio in your IEM mix, not hype top/bottom of the frequency range.

I would definitely TRY the 535's at practice and get a good mix going!

 

[vanderbe]

I have UE 11 for bass/drums….got them a few years ago. There may be newer products by UE, but these are awesome albeit expensive.

Ultimate Ears UE 11 Pro In-Ear Monitors review

 

[tomilchik]

My guess is that it's pretty simple.
The difference is NOT lack of seal in this case (but it USUALLY is the main culprit)!

You listened to the same music on both sets of buds, but you are not factoring in that:
The AP Pro's have hyped bass/high-end response .. the old smiley-curve EQ built-in, whereas the 535's have a flat response (no internal EQ)! Hence your experience with "sound devoid of lows, very mid-hi rangey."

For live use, if you need more bass, increase the bass channel mix level.
You'll get a better "mix" to hear with the 535's because they'll replicate the audio in your IEM mix, not hype top/bottom of the frequency range.

I would definitely TRY the 535's at practice and get a good mix going!

First - thanks all for your inputs! All valid points.
Second (quote^^^): yessir! That’s very likely
AP AirPods must be pre-tweaked for the eventual consumer.
On stage - that’s not exactly what musicians want to hear.
Another reference point: my band mate whose reaction to SE-215 and 535 (plus some other high-end IEM starting with W - forgot what it was) was same as mine: relatively unimpressive lo-freq.
So it’s not just me, hopefully.

I discovered that I can push 535 to give me lows comparable to AP; I just had to EQ the incoming signal ridiculously high on low freq. So: the device _can_ but OOTB is set differently.

All in all: makes sense. For monitoring I’d rather _hear_ what I play than enjoy the final product which shakes the earth.

Remains to be tested: how kick will come through. If I can hear it - no matter how thin-sounding it might be - good for the purpose.

 

[tomilchik]

I'd generally agree with @Fun Size Nick that the likelihood would seem to be that you aren't getting a proper seal. Bass response is absolutely dependent on seal and from posts that we see from time to time (like now) is something that can be difficult to convey in a post.

Where my opinion would differ is that I believe that most statements about tips should be qualified with for me...as in X tips work better for me (not inherently or for everyone).

Ear canals can differ quite broadly. They're not generally round but a more oval or very rounded rectangular shape. Typically ear canals are taller than wide with height ranging (depending on the source) from 5.5mm to 16.5mm and width from 3mm to 9.5mm. Universal fit IEMs have round nozzles and round tips with diameters for nozzles tending to fall anywhere between 1.5mm and 6.5mm and tip outer diameters being from very roughly 8mm to 14mm. Taking in the numbers, you'll realize that there are some IEMs that won't even fit in some ears, and the are ears than cannot likely be filled by any standard tips.

Shure IEMs have a narrow nozzle (1.5 or 2mm afaik), which means that regardless of which tip you're using, you're going to be depending on the largest amount of tip material for your seal. This can be a positive or negative. A positive is that either foam or silicone tips have the greatest opportunity to conform to your ear canals. But if you have highly atypically shaped canals or they are at the extreme high end of the diameter range, that could mean that there isn't necessarily a universal tip size that will work for you...the tip material simply cannot eliminate all voids.

All that said, assuming that some universal size/material/configuration will work for you, finding out which one works best will require some experimentation. Foam tips work best for some people's ears and silicone tips work better for other people's ears. With silicone tips, there are double and triple flange tips that are found by some to provide the best seal and bass response.

It's likely that your IEMs came with a small assortment of tips...try them all, and it sounds like you may need to go beyond the tips that were included.

If you're using foam tips, it's important to compress the material by rolling it between your fingers, inserting and then allowing a moment for the material to expand. If you do this and don't get a good seal, you need a larger outer diameter and possibly a longer tip.

You say that the fit is as snug as possible, but without experience, it's possible that fitting inside your ears but not truly or fully conforming to the the shape could be mistaken for as snug as possible when it's not.

Adding some color to my “snug fit”:
* I picked same-sized rubber tips for the 535 as AP Pro
* pressed on 535s to go deeper in my ear (with any buds, including AP - usually results in better seal and deeper lows)
* also tried the largest foam tips that came with 535

The results: same - not enough lows.

But - see below (another reply).
I’m likely looking for the wrong thing: IEM’s purpose is to let me hear clearly what’s going on, _not_ to give me a pretty consumer-pleasing sound.
The “clearly” part lives in mid range, not in lows. As a mater of fact - when I practice I always tweak my sound to be very mid-range so I hear every note I play; practicing with my EQ set to what I’d sound from stage - I cannot really make out the fine details

So: it all makes more sense now.

 

[drpepper]

...I’m likely looking for the wrong thing: IEM’s purpose is to let me hear clearly what’s going on, _not_ to give me a pretty consumer-pleasing sound.

It's not possible to know if I hear precisely what you hear, even if we were standing right next to each other listening to the same thing. Partly because of that, it's also not really possible to know how similarly we describe things. With forum posts, writers create descriptions and readers form mental images from the words combined with personal experience.

I don't have an experience with AirPod Pros, but personally, from a description of lows that includes "not even close (and I mean - 100 miles)", "what I’m hearing is sound devoid of lows" and "low end - bass, kick - not at all" is the description of a problem, not simply the difference between "hyped bass" and a more flat frequency response. If that's really all there is to it and it satisfactorily answers your questions, then good for you.

While I haven't tried everything under the sun, I used SE 215s and SE 535s for a rehearsal or two a long while back when I was initially shopping, and I've also made comparisons between a decent handful of IEMs using recorded music listening as one point of comparison and probably the easiest to get immediate back-to-back impressions. Again, what I say is based on my mental image from your description and then on how I describe things versus how you do, but while I can certainly hear and appreciate differences in bass and sub bass response, I have never heard a difference so stark that I would say as a relative matter one set had "no bass at all" or was "100 miles apart". With the sets that have hyped bass and sub bass, music with sub bass content is felt differently and sub bass tests stronger, but every set I've listened to could produce what I consider a pleasant sound and sound profile for listening to recorded music, especially across a wider spectrum where some music doesn't really have sub bass content. With what I'm taking from your description, I can't image that'd be the case for you with the 535s, so I have to wonder.

Personally, I do want my IEMs to produce a pleasant sound. For myself, a sound quality benchmark for IEMs in terms of stage use is if they can or can be part of producing the impression or illusion that sound is coming from an amp when it's not. Possibly yet another point where our perceptions and descriptions don't meet, but I also can't imagine what you describe as ever being able to create that impression.

If you're curious, I'd suggest running through some of the tests here The Ultimate Headphones Test

See where the bass comes in on the frequency response test. I'd have to go back and check, but my Westone UM20, which I'd expect to be in the same bass ballpark as the 535s and don't have sub bass, actually still kicked in pretty near the start of the sweep. If you're truly getting nothing through any significant part of the test, then I could only believe there's some problem.

And lastly, while you may be right and there's no problem, I think this video includes a great example of someone who believed that a set of IEMs were lacking in bass, when he simply hadn't tried the right tips for him yet.

 

[tomilchik]

Good point on sub-freq bass.
AP produce more of a consumer sound: lows that you’d never hear from bass combos on stage, but rather subs-reinforced FOH sound.
My mistake is to expect same from IEMs: they serve diff purpose.
And of course - I’ll keep experimenting with the fit.

 

[tomilchik]

It's not possible to know if I hear precisely what you hear, even if we were standing right next to each other listening to the same thing. Partly because of that, it's also not really possible to know how similarly we describe things. With forum posts, writers create descriptions and readers form mental images from the words combined with personal experience.

I don't have an experience with AirPod Pros, but personally, from a description of lows that includes "not even close (and I mean - 100 miles)", "what I’m hearing is sound devoid of lows" and "low end - bass, kick - not at all" is the description of a problem, not simply the difference between "hyped bass" and a more flat frequency response. If that's really all there is to it and it satisfactorily answers your questions, then good for you.

While I haven't tried everything under the sun, I used SE 215s and SE 535s for a rehearsal or two a long while back when I was initially shopping, and I've also made comparisons between a decent handful of IEMs using recorded music listening as one point of comparison and probably the easiest to get immediate back-to-back impressions. Again, what I say is based on my mental image from your description and then on how I describe things versus how you do, but while I can certainly hear and appreciate differences in bass and sub bass response, I have never heard a difference so stark that I would say as a relative matter one set had "no bass at all" or was "100 miles apart". With the sets that have hyped bass and sub bass, music with sub bass content is felt differently and sub bass tests stronger, but every set I've listened to could produce what I consider a pleasant sound and sound profile for listening to recorded music, especially across a wider spectrum where some music doesn't really have sub bass content. With what I'm taking from your description, I can't image that'd be the case for you with the 535s, so I have to wonder.

Personally, I do want my IEMs to produce a pleasant sound. For myself, a sound quality benchmark for IEMs in terms of stage use is if they can or can be part of producing the impression or illusion that sound is coming from an amp when it's not. Possibly yet another point where our perceptions and descriptions don't meet, but I also can't imagine what you describe as ever being able to create that impression.

If you're curious, I'd suggest running through some of the tests here The Ultimate Headphones Test

See where the bass comes in on the frequency response test. I'd have to go back and check, but my Westone UM20, which I'd expect to be in the same bass ballpark as the 535s and don't have sub bass, actually still kicked in pretty near the start of the sweep. If you're truly getting nothing through any significant part of the test, then I could only believe there's some problem.

And lastly, while you may be right and there's no problem, I think this video includes a great example of someone who believed that a set of IEMs were lacking in bass, when he simply hadn't tried the right tips for him yet.

That’s what I love TB for!
@drpepper thanks for the vid! It reminded me that I haven’t tried the 535 fit with triple-flanged tips.
That did it for my ears!
Side-by-side play-along with a record (Broadway recording, so - lows are there): my bass and recording sound same (sound quality wise ), and I can hear what’s going on.
A much happier camper now.

 

[Baker69]

Before I went over to IEM’s I had already in my possession for a couple of years a set of SE215’s which I used for personal music listening through my MP3 player and I thought they were tremendous. They were very light, very comfortable to wear, reasonably good in sound isolation and gave a pretty good sound and decent bass response.

When my band started using IEM’s it was an obvious choice to use the SE215’s for this purpose as I had already read on TB that they were a fairly good choice for bass players, and it would at least save me some money in not having to buy a dedicated set of buds just for band use. I think I used them for the first couple of technical rehearsals and a couple of gigs but I was intrigued by the KZ ZS10 ear buds that our keyboard player was using. After a bit of research I decided to get some, but rather than the ZS10’s I went for the ZS10 Pro ear buds, the reviews were fantastic and at only around £44 on Amazon I felt it was well worth a punt!

Anyway, the ZS10 Pro’s turned out to be just as good as the reviews had said, and in my opinion are considerably better than my SE215’s, with their 5 drivers per side the difference is huge. There is a downside however in that they are quite heavy in comparison to the SE215’s and getting the buds in your ears correctly is really crucial. I use the Comply foam tips which are great although they don’t tend to last very long, it also took me a while to establish the correct size tips that I needed to suit my ears.

I have toy’d around with the idea of having custom mould IEM’s, but for the cost of them I’m not sure whether it would actually improve on the sound that noticeably (but no doubt they would instantly fit better and give an improved air seal).

I would definitely recommend the ZS10 Pro’s to anyone starting out on IEM’s, a brilliant bit of kit for not much outlay, what’s not to love?

 

[Wild_Bill_57]

I went with the Ultimate Ears UE-11 Custom molded ear buds and the Shure PSM900 wireless system. Not cheap, but not the most expensive. The sound is incredible, I have never had IEMs or Headphone that sounded this good.

 

[Dvbssman]

New to this thread and hoping those of you that also sing can help me. My Shure 535’s get a good seal using the foam tips after compressing and inserting into my ears. My bass sounds great but I am not satisfied with the sound of my voice. I am mostly hearing my voice through the vibration of my skull. If I use over the ear headphones my voice sounds great. I first thought custom molded IEM’s might help but in my mind the better seal would make the voice problem worse. Any ideas?

 

[Wild_Bill_57]

A properly made set of molds should work fine. Ultimate Ears are the best I’ve used.

Side note Ultimate Ears has a 30day money back guarantee if you are not satisfied with the fit or sound. The only manufacturer I know of that offers that.

 

[Windreaper]

New to this thread and hoping those of you that also sing can help me. My Shure 535’s get a good seal using the foam tips after compressing and inserting into my ears. My bass sounds great but I am not satisfied with the sound of my voice. I am mostly hearing my voice through the vibration of my skull. If I use over the ear headphones my voice sounds great. I first thought custom molded IEM’s might help but in my mind the better seal would make the voice problem worse. Any ideas?

It's called occlusion. The low frequencies are transmitted into your sealed ear canal through your skull. It can be mitigated by venting or molds that extend deep into the ear canal.

To hear this in practice, try singing "eee" while plugging your ears with your fingers, or something, and increase the insertion depth. If the sound gets quieter, your issue can be mitigated by ordering customs made from good, deep impressions extending into the bony part of your ear.

 

[drpepper]

I am not satisfied with the sound of my voice. I am mostly hearing my voice through the vibration of my skull. If I use over the ear headphones my voice sounds great.

So, first to make sure I understand...by "not satisfied with the sound" of your voice, I'm taking from context that your vocal isn't loud enough? You don't mention that you tried raising the level on your vocals...is that because you feel that you shouldn't have to because the over-ears you tried sound fine or that you can't actually turn them up any more; they're maxed out in your mix? Also, are there other vocals, and if so, how do they sound in the 535s?

Without being sure that I'm understanding you correctly and going Captain Obvious on you anyway, turn your vocals up in your mix. If you feel that you shouldn't have to because of the over-ears, I can tell you from my experience that's not necessarily the case...different sets can have different response to the point that a good mix for one will be less so for another. If you feel you're maxed out, then start over, turn everything else down and raise the overall level so you have more room. Also, if this is a single band-owned PA or something, make sure your mic has appropriate input gain set. And this is especially true if there are other vocals and they sound ok.

I'm of the opinion that there are two main reasons to move from universals to custom molds or to recommend that, one is that you have some insurmountable issue with the fit of universals and the other is that you just have a wild hair to get custom IEMs. Seeing that this isn't one of those two, I don't see how customs would necessarily solve the issue you're having as I'm understanding it.

 

[Dvbssman]

So, first to make sure I understand...by "not satisfied with the sound" of your voice, I'm taking from context that your vocal isn't loud enough? You don't mention that you tried raising the level on your vocals...is that because you feel that you shouldn't have to because the over-ears you tried sound fine or that you can't actually turn them up any more; they're maxed out in your mix? Also, are there other vocals, and if so, how do they sound in the 535s?

Without being sure that I'm understanding you correctly and going Captain Obvious on you anyway, turn your vocals up in your mix. If you feel that you shouldn't have to because of the over-ears, I can tell you from my experience that's not necessarily the case...different sets can have different response to the point that a good mix for one will be less so for another. If you feel you're maxed out, then start over, turn everything else down and raise the overall level so you have more room. Also, if this is a single band-owned PA or something, make sure your mic has appropriate input gain set. And this is especially true if there are other vocals and they sound ok.

I'm of the opinion that there are two main reasons to move from universals to custom molds or to recommend that, one is that you have some insurmountable issue with the fit of universals and the other is that you just have a wild hair to get custom IEMs. Seeing that this isn't one of those two, I don't see how customs would necessarily solve the issue you're having as I'm understanding it.

Thanks for your detailed response. If I raise the raise my vocals in my mix it does sound better and I don’t hear much of my voice thru my skull. The problem then is that my voice is so loud I can’t hear the music well and my singing can get out of sync.