IEMs with true stereo?

[Gustav_over_net]

Hi there fellow bass players,

I'm looking for a wireless IEM system on a tight budget for my bass to hear myself in live situations, be that stage or rehearsal. I've seen some reviews online, and have encountered this magic phrase a few times - "true stereo", usually regarding gear that is on the cheaper side of already a budget side of IEMs (2.4 maybe 5Ghz smollish-cheapo devices) and always that it is lacking said feature.

Sometimes the reviewer says that given IEM is stereo but not "true stereo" and then goes about rest of the review, as if that was some common knowledge that everyone is supposed to understand.

All I know is that you either have one channel, or two separate channels, so one is mono and the other stereo. If you have mono everything is dead center and you can only stack it by volume, if you have stereo you can set the stage however you want with pan, volume, and also position in space if you can aux reverb into your mixer.

Have you ever heard about this? What is this "true stereo", what is the difference between "just stereo"?

And also, what would be the cheapest wireless IEM system you could recommend, that is amateur level gig worthy? Is stereo even an option in the budget range?

 

[WayneP]

Not knowing the product in the review mentioned, it seems like semantics. Might try reviewing other similar products in the hopes that one will give a definition. Or perhaps on-line manuals for the products in question will clarify it.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Official Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
Pedulla Club #45

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

"True stereo" might mean a lot of things depending on the context.

In audio world, we have stereo microphone techniques that capture what we call a true stereo image. X/Y, A/B, Bluemlein, etc are examples.

You can also create a stereo image by phantom imaging which is panning the instruments in between the speakers.

If your headphone amp has a stereo input, you can technically have either in your ears.

Some bass players use words "bi-amping" and "stereo" interchangingly, which IMHO is wrong.

 

[74hc]

I cannot answer that question, but have some experience. I've been using a Phenyx Pro PTM10 for a couple of years now.

It's a stereo unit, but there is some bleed over between the two channels (left/right). So's it's not the best if using it for two separate mixes with two receivers. I guess that "true stereo" means there is none of the bleed over.

I only recommend the PTM10 for limited cases. If you want something durable, this is not it. I've dropped the receiver on tile while putting it on my belt. The display cracked and it now only has green streaks, no readable information. One of the springs for the battery broke off, and I had soldered it on to fix it. I'm looking to move off it, and waiting on my SW rep to get back to me.

Also, the PTM10 uses the unlicensed 900Mhz band. At my house, I never get interference, but at the places I gig at, I do. Commercial buildings have been putting in control/sensor equipment that uses this frequency space. You may have to jump around at a new gig and find a channel/group that will work. Otherwise, you'll hear the occasionally digital transmission of those control/sensor units sending data back to the controller.

As to 5ghz WiFi, here in the states, the FCC mandates what's called DFS (dynamic frequency selection). Basically, all WiFi with 5gig band has to avoid aircraft and radar. This leaves 9 channels where DFS is not needed (last time I looked). Some of the 5ghz gear manufactures don't bother with DFS (ups the cost), and just limits the unit to non-DFS channels. I don't know if the EU is different, but you need to be aware of this and research any 5ghz WiFi devices you intend to purchase.

Wireless gear for musicians is "you get what you pay for", or "cry once, buy once" seems to apply with my experience.

 

[s0c9]

I'm not sure what "true stereo" means in the live audio situation - including IEM's.
Most console inputs are single (mono) channel with maybe keys or a dual-mic'd guitar/bass or a stereo mix off a laptop being the limit.

For IEM's stereo means being able to pan instruments to sit in the L/R field where you want and adjust the level of each. That's great when one has more than one of any instrument on stage - pan to taste. It also helps to create separation that you don't get with a mono mix.
"Stereo" IEM's require both L/R inputs and many digital consoles support stereo output busses (linked) for that purpose.

Sadly, there's not much in the "cheap" range that will get you that.
To be sure you can buy "cheaper" Xvive (mono wireless) or PM351 (supports stereo wired) and whole host of other options but if you want "GOOD" Stereo wireless IEM's - then you gotta go w/ the big boys - Senn, Shure, etc. - and pay the admission price.

As a long time wireless IEM user, it was WAY worth the price to me.

 

[drpepper]

As @s0c9 pointed out, with regard to IEMs, stereo or "a stereo mix" refers to the capability to pan individual mono source mixer channels.

A wireless stereo IEM mix requires two monitor ("aux") outputs of the mixer running to two (R/L) inputs on the wireless transmitter that are then going to a stereo beltpack receiver (i.e., that keeps the R/L separate to the headphone jack).

Among wireless transmitter/receiver sets, there are units that are stereo up to the transmitter but the receiver is mono. These would be models that could be labeled as "stereo"...they support stereo input and stereo output through the headphone jack on the transmitter. That the receiver blends to mono is almost a fine print matter. If you're looking at reviews that are distinguishing between models that are nominally stereo and those that are "true stereo", it's possible that stereo input transmitter/mono receiver sets are rightly being pointed out as not truly being stereo as a cautionary matter.

Why those exist, I'm not 100% sure...one possibility is that it allows marketing as "stereo," and another is that while there isn't much difference between manufacturing a mono or stereo transmitter, there is a meaningful difference between cost and complexity of mono and stereo beltpack receivers.

All that said, if I were to make a suggestion to someone in your position that would be that it might be worthwhile to pause and examine why you're interested in wireless and whether stereo is viable or even beneficial in your situation.

Will this be your first foray into IEMs and you're considering wireless because you've heard or believe it's just generally preferable, necessary or inherently superior? Or have you been using wired IEMs and find they don't work for you? Are you generally stationary? Do you run your bass wireless? Trying to meet a tight budget, being stationary and running your bass wired are (one or all) factors that favor wired IEMs.

With regard to stereo vs mono, the first thing to look at is whether or not you have the available aux channels for it...if it's not practical or possible then it's a moot point anyway. Secondly, hearing is an incredibly subjective thing. Some people find stereo IEM mixes to be very beneficial. Personally, with my IEM mixes generally consisting of 2 or 3 vocals, 1 or 2 guitars, bass, kick, snare and sometimes keys, I don't feel at all challenged to distinguish between or physically locate sound sources, so I find no benefit from panning. As a matter of fact, I sometimes find imbalance stands out as imbalance itself more than anything else and can actually be a negative. You may find a stereo mix to be beneficial, you may not.

IMO, a lot of decisions and moves with IEMs are more about whether there is a meaningful benefit in one thing over another or whether there is a problem or shortcoming you're dealing with. For me, in many cases, that means it makes the most sense to try the lowest or no cost/effort option first. If you have no problems or complaints with the IEMs you're using, there's not likely to be a great benefit moving to something else...if a mono mix works just fine and you're not having trouble separating and locating sound sources, there is no problem to be solved, etc.

 

[Gustav_over_net]

@WayneP @MYLOWFREQ @74hc @s0c9 @drpepper Thanks for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

All that said, if I were to make a suggestion to someone in your position that would be that it might be worthwhile to pause and examine why you're interested in wireless and whether stereo is viable or even beneficial in your situation.

That is a valid question to ask before buying anything - is it really essential to your music. Truth be told it is not it would be just nice to have, because I got used to it so much.

Will this be your first foray into IEMs and you're considering wireless because you've heard or believe it's just generally preferable, necessary or inherently superior? Or have you been using wired IEMs and find they don't work for you? Are you generally stationary? Do you run your bass wireless? Trying to meet a tight budget, being stationary and running your bass wired are (one or all) factors that favor wired IEMs.

Not to bore you with my history, in short I've been playing for years with a simple 8ch mixer on my pedalboard and always got sound to my se215 in-ears over wire (2x1/4" male to single 1/8" TRS female) that was strapped to bass cable. As convienient, stereo, and latency free it was, it was also unreliable because those simple stereo wires would break often. I didn't want those belt strapped wired amplifiers because they all use 2x XLR input, and I didn't fancy having 3-cable-garden-hose running up to my bass on stage
I got tired of constantly replacing that audio wire before more serious gigs, and decided to try wireless. Right now I'm using cheapes possible mono one that doesn't use WiFi frequency, and has some alternative channels if it gets crowded at the venue. It works, but I started to wonder how much would I have to cough up to get back to that convenience of having stereo while remaining wireless.

BTW just yesterday I saw one thread here where someone mentioned this cable :

TC Helicon | Product | GUITAR & HEADPHONE CABLE
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=f0ff9b8686694485ee8ce30390604eb6

which would be exactly what I want for wired setup, if only it was easy to buy and reliable. Sadly in comments people say it also breaks easily.

if a mono mix works just fine and you're not having trouble separating and locating sound sources, there is no problem to be solved, etc.

That is absolutely true, I'm not trying to solve a problem but rather upgrade my experience here. Upside of stereo was always that no other band member could surprise me with sudden change of volume or tone that would mess with my bass (like Rhodes on keys or OC-3 on guitar) because they were set far left and far right. With mono I simply set all other inputs much lower than my bass, and cut off LF on all of them, sounds like I'm playing to a kitchen radio, but I can live with that if it means I'm saving new bass level kind of money, by not upgrading to reliable wireless stereo

 

[drpepper]

...Right now I'm using cheapes possible mono one that doesn't use WiFi frequency, and has some alternative channels if it gets crowded at the venue. It works, but I started to wonder how much would I have to cough up...

I think sharing some of the history of what you've been doing is helpful, not a bore.

And IMO, something doesn't have to be "essential" to be valid and worthwhile...whim and simple unreasoned preference can get me there. If the decision to seek a budget wireless stereo IEM system is valid and worthwhile to you, then it is. OTOH, if I'm reasoning my way to a decision, I'd hope that I'm basing that on complete and correct information.

In that the "cheapest possible" mono system is working for you, there are a number of "cheap" stereo systems that are well reviewed that would likely serve you just as well. The way I see it, going that route, you obviously have the same caveats and compromises that you're dealing with in your cheap mono system plus you need to be careful to avoid the type I mentioned that's marketed as stereo but doesn't have or have an option for a stereo receiver.

If not that, I think the simple answer to the question of "how much to cough up?" on the higher tier systems is that going in, I'd want to be prepared to spend a minimum of $800 USD. I think there are precious few options between $200-ish range and that.

While I can't say that I fully followed what your wired setup was, it sounds like it was more cumbersome than necessary. If you believe the TC Helicon cable would have been a solution, while it is true that they don't seem to be available anymore, while it didn't feel robust, mine has worked since I think 2016 or 17, and like a number of other people, I have put together my own combination cables that serve the same function well. They aren't as small as the TC Helicon cable, but hardly a "garden hose".

 

[musicman7722]

Wired is by far the best solution in the beginning but you must also be sure your band mixer has enough aux outs to allocate two of them to you for stereo mixing.

 

[Gustav_over_net]

I think sharing some of the history of what you've been doing is helpful, not a bore.

And IMO, something doesn't have to be "essential" to be valid and worthwhile...whim and simple unreasoned preference can get me there. If the decision to seek a budget wireless stereo IEM system is valid and worthwhile to you, then it is. OTOH, if I'm reasoning my way to a decision, I'd hope that I'm basing that on complete and correct information.

In that the "cheapest possible" mono system is working for you, there are a number of "cheap" stereo systems that are well reviewed that would likely serve you just as well. The way I see it, going that route, you obviously have the same caveats and compromises that you're dealing with in your cheap mono system plus you need to be careful to avoid the type I mentioned that's marketed as stereo but doesn't have or have an option for a stereo receiver.

If not that, I think the simple answer to the question of "how much to cough up?" on the higher tier systems is that going in, I'd want to be prepared to spend a minimum of $800 USD. I think there are precious few options between $200-ish range and that.

While I can't say that I fully followed what your wired setup was, it sounds like it was more cumbersome than necessary. If you believe the TC Helicon cable would have been a solution, while it is true that they don't seem to be available anymore, while it didn't feel robust, mine has worked since I think 2016 or 17, and like a number of other people, I have put together my own combination cables that serve the same function well. They aren't as small as the TC Helicon cable, but hardly a "garden hose".

That setup in the video is almost the same I had, I just never thought about sleeving it like that. That maybe the reason why his works and mine is broken.
I might actually try that and make combined fully sleeved cable myself, because I don't plan on going wireless with the bass signal itself, since it is a mission critical part, so one cable will probably always be there running from bass to pedalboard.
If it turns out to be to stiff or something I can always go back to that mono wireless.

Your explanation about stereo in transmitter and mono in reciever makes sense, but if it was me reviewing hardware I would just simply have said that it is mono, or at least stereo in/mono out, that would be way less confusing than what the reviewer said. That whole wireless gear cought my attention because suddenly it got incredibly cheap on the cheap end. "Cheap" used to be $300 for used old version of PSM300, now it seems like you can get by with $150 brand new system.

 

[Gustav_over_net]

Wired is by far the best solution in the beginning but you must also be sure your band mixer has enough aux outs to allocate two of them to you for stereo mixing.

It actually happened only once , and it was because we brought our own sound guy, and venue had a proper table with all the bells and whistles, so I could ask for whatever I wanted, 2x aux over XLR included.
But that is not how I get my iem sound. I have smol mixer on the pedalboard and run signals myself from back of the amps since they never go to PA with line but always with mics.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi there fellow bass players,

I'm looking for a wireless IEM system on a tight budget for my bass to hear myself in live situations, be that stage or rehearsal. I've seen some reviews online, and have encountered this magic phrase a few times - "true stereo", usually regarding gear that is on the cheaper side of already a budget side of IEMs (2.4 maybe 5Ghz smollish-cheapo devices) and always that it is lacking said feature.

Sometimes the reviewer says that given IEM is stereo but not "true stereo" and then goes about rest of the review, as if that was some common knowledge that everyone is supposed to understand.

All I know is that you either have one channel, or two separate channels, so one is mono and the other stereo. If you have mono everything is dead center and you can only stack it by volume, if you have stereo you can set the stage however you want with pan, volume, and also position in space if you can aux reverb into your mixer.

Have you ever heard about this? What is this "true stereo", what is the difference between "just stereo"?

And also, what would be the cheapest wireless IEM system you could recommend, that is amateur level gig worthy? Is stereo even an option in the budget range?

I used Avioms which is true stereo for over a thousand worship services. Our P&W band had 2 guitarists, two keyboardists, drums singers and horn section with a 60 member choir. What I used the stereo for was to clear out every thing I didn’t need to get through the service. In that regard it worked well. I’ve also done a lot of recording the last 30 years or so just using head phones where there is no spatial stereo mix, just enough to get you through the cut.

My thought while it’s nice to be able to play with everything just so in the cans, my experience is it tends to go away very soon as everybody else’s gain changes and as a bassist that needs to have both hands on the instrument, adjustment on the fly are impossible.

Don’t get me wrong that I’m trying to discourage you from fleshing out a stereo IEM system, IMO a good mono mix works just as well for getting the job done.

 

[mcnach]

It actually happened only once , and it was because we brought our own sound guy, and venue had a proper table with all the bells and whistles, so I could ask for whatever I wanted, 2x aux over XLR included.
But that is not how I get my iem sound. I have smol mixer on the pedalboard and run signals myself from back of the amps since they never go to PA with line but always with mics.

I use a small mixer on my board too. When I can get a stereo feed, I use that. When I can only get a mono one, I use that. When I can't even do that, I plug in an ambient microphone onstage which is not ideal but much better than nothing (and much clearer than using just earplugs). My bass always goes through the mixer too, and I balance whatever else I get with my bass and can even apply some limited EQ. I'd love to be able to always have the ability to have a nice personal mix from the sound engineer's desk, but as that's not always available to us, the alternative with a small mixer on the board saves me worries and works well.

 

[Blues Daddy]

And also, what would be the cheapest wireless IEM system you could recommend, that is amateur level gig worthy? Is stereo even an option in the budget range?

. . . . probably not the 'cheapest' wireless IEM set up out there but I've been VERY happy with my
KZ ZS10 Pro 5 Driver in-Ear Earphones (Without Mic)
https://www.amazon.com/KZ-ZS10-Linsoul-Earphones-Detachable/dp/B07QKYTGH9?th=1

and

Xvive U4 Wireless in-Ear Monitor System Professional IEM System
https://www.amazon.com/Xvive-Wirele...ics&sprefix=xvive,electronics,117&sr=1-4&th=1

 

[silky smoove]

No headphones or IEMs are actually stereo. They are binaural. Stereo occurs when you have a left channel, a right channel, and includes the interactions between them which creates a phantom center image. This is due to the different distances between your ears and the sound source causing the same sound to arrive at each ear at different times. Headphones and IEMs eliminate this sort of crosstalk between your ears such that what one ear hears may be completed isolated from the other ear, thus negating the concept of stereo. So in a way, IEMs shouldn't be marketed as stereo or true stereo, but rather binaural if we want the marketing to be accurate.

 

[GreyBeard]

I haven't tried this but, I bet it would work. You want to supplement your volume so you can hear yourself better on stage without making your stage volume louder, right? I'd try a low latency Blue Tooth transmitter like the kind use for TV to BT headphones (Sinnheiser makes a nice one for around $70) and a pr of BT ear buds of your choice. Come out of your pre-amp out to the transmitter and pr it to the earbuds. You'll have to match up some cable adapter as the transmitter is 3 mm input. But, you won't have a ton of money tied up in and if it doesn't work just send it back for a refund. I'm sure the (tech heads) will scream foul but take it from someone who has been messing with this stuff for over 50 yrs. Don't be afraid to try an unorthodox solution.

 

[s0c9]

I haven't tried this but, I bet it would work. You want to supplement your volume so you can ear yourself better on stage without making your stage volume louder, right? I'd try a low latency Blue Tooth transmitter like the kind use for TV to BT headphones (Sinnheiser makes a nice one for around $70) and a pr of BT ear buds of your choice. Come out of your pre-amp out to the transmitter and pr it to the earbuds. You'll have to match up some cable adapter as the transmitter is 3 mm input. But, you won't have a ton of money tied up in and if it doesn't work just send it back for a refund.

Will NOT work. BT latency is too slow for live use.
IT works GREAT for one-way signals - such as listening to music or playing thru a PA - but not when one needs to react/respond to what one hears!
If you sing while playing it will compound the issue.

 

[GreyBeard]

Will NOT work. BT latency is too slow for live use.
IT works GREAT for one-way signals - such as listening to music or playing thru a PA - but not when one needs to react/respond to what one hears!
If you sing while playing it will compound the issue.

You have to go with LOW LATENCY BT. like used for the TV to sinc with BT headphones. If the latency were too high then people's mouths wouldn't match the action. Some BT transmitter like the Hosa I have are close to 1/2 sec latent and definitely would not work. But, Xvive is making BT wireless devices that many people are perfectly happy with.

 

[Wasnex]

I think it relates to the following:

Some IEMs have controls that allow them to function as sort of a mini-mixer. Some have a switch that allows you mix to mono, rather than having each channel hard panned left and right.

This sort of IEM belt pack is sort of a semi-useful bodge for those who lack the skills and/or resources to do IEMs well. The idea is it gives you the ability to balance the level of two sound sources in mono mix.

Why? While a stereo IEM mix is preferred, IMHO hard panning two channels is a bad/dangerous idea. For example, running bass in the left ear and a band mix in the right ear = increased risk of hearing damage.

The reason is because of something called binaural summation. When you hear the same sound equally in both ears, it is perceived 6dB louder. Or you can think of it the other way, if you only hear a sound in one ear, you loose 6dB of perceived loudness. To overcome the perceived loss of SPL, you have to turn the IEMs up 6dB louder. More noise exposure equal more damage to your ears.

So for a more natural sound that takes at least partial advantage of binaural summing, a stereo mix should pan most sound sources in about 3-5dB intervals up to about +/-15dB L/R. I definitely would not pan anything accept a nice stereo reverb harder than +/-20dB.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

There's a few semi affordable options for stereo wireless iem systems i can think of off the top of my head Anellion, Ld systems, Audio 2000, Galaxy Audio, Mipro 2.4/5.8 and Carvin. I'd personally spend Abit more and go for the new Audio Technica 3000 series wireless tho as it includes a network port for using frequency management software it covers the widest frequency range I've seen next to the $$$ flagship Shure Axient system.