If a tree falls in the forrest do pickups actually make a difference

[Hopkins]

I guess I'm dense then. All this time I thought Fender wasn't using alder or ash on their Squier line because there were cheaper woods available. What was I thinking?

Alder and Ash are local woods in the States. The Squier line is built over seas, besides, they use maple in the VM lines which is around the same price as Alder.

Either way, my original point is that luthiers, not big companys, use tone woods as a selling point, and they can sell exotic wood for much more than the price difference between the exotic and cheaper stuff.

 

[Major Softie]

If a tank of gas at one station was $3.75 more a gallon at one station, then another, then I would go to the one that was closer to me. If one was 3.75 a gallon more than the other one, then that would be a huge difference on a full tank, and that station wouldn't sell much gas.

You cant be dense enough to actually believe that a $3.75 difference between two body blanks will have any kind of meaningful impact on the final price of an instrument. There are more than $3.75 worth of screws in a bass. So its a nominal difference to a small builder. A large company buying large quantities of lumber in bulk, will pay much less for their lumber than a small builder, so the price difference will get even smaller.

You are mistaken.

When building large quantities of something, being able to save $3.75 per unit with a simple change of material that requires absolutely no other investment by the company is a huge postive.

You're right about it having little impact on a small builder, but when making thousands, or 10's of thousands, that is EXACTLY the kind of cost savings the company looks to make. You are, however quite correct about it not making a difference to the final price. They build a product to a price point. A $3.75 savings per unit is entirely $3.75 additional profit per unit. If you don't think large manufacturers don't care about making an extra $3.75 per unit, you could use a basic business class. And extra dollar per unit of pure profit is a pure positive.

 

[Hopkins]

You are mistaken.

When building large quantities of something, being able to save $3.75 per unit with a simple change of material that requires absolutely no other investment by the company is a huge postive.

You're right about it having little impact on a small builder, but when making thousands, or 10's of thousands, that is EXACTLY the kind of cost savings the company looks to make. You are, however quite correct about it not making a difference to the final price. They build a product to a price point. A $3.75 savings per unit is entirely $3.75 additional profit per unit. If you don't think large manufacturers don't care about making an extra $3.75 per unit, you could use a basic business class. And extra dollar per unit of pure profit is a pure positive.

Again, large companies buying in bulk pay a much lower price than someone buying enough wood for one instrument. So the price difference is probably much smaller.

That being said, the point I was making had more to do with smaller operations. Fender isn't buying many exotic woods

 

[petrus61]

Again, large companies buying in bulk pay a much lower price than someone buying enough wood for one instrument. So the price difference is probably much smaller.

That being said, the point I was making had more to do with smaller operations. Fender isn't buying many exotic woods

And smaller builders up charge for those woods. If I contracted Fodera to build me a bass made of plywood, I would expect them to adjust the price accordingly...or does that only work in the opposite direction?

 

[Hopkins]

And smaller builders up charge for those woods. If I contracted Fodera to build me a bass made of plywood, I would expect them to adjust the price accordingly...or does that only work in the opposite direction?

I am going to give you an example. One builder I read about on this forum charges a $250 up charge for for a Mac Ebony fret board over rosewood or maple. My local hardwood place sells Indian rosewood for $30 a board foot, and Macassar Ebony for $60 a board foot. A fretboard blank is about half a board foot so lets say its 15 bucks for a rosewood board and 30 for the Mac Ebony. That $15 difference is worth an extra $235 for that builder.

Before you go and say that ebony is more difficult to work with, or anything along those lines. I can tell you that I have used both to make fretboards, and ebony is no more difficult to work with than rosewood.

This is a Mac Ebony board I am using on a build I am working on right now

 

[petrus61]

I am going to give you an example. One builder I read about on this forum charges a $250 up charge for for a Mac Ebony fret board over rosewood or maple. My local hardwood place sells Indian rosewood for $30 a board foot, and Macassar Ebony for $60 a board foot. A fretboard blank is about half a board foot so lets say its 15 bucks for a rosewood board and 30 for the Mac Ebony. That $15 difference is worth an extra $235 for that builder.

Before you go and say that ebony is more difficult to work with, or anything along those lines. I can tell you that I have used both to make fretboards, and ebony is no more difficult to work with than rosewood.

This is a Mac Ebony board I am using on a build I am working on right now

So at the end of the day, small builders do see a profit from selecting "higher grade" woods. Weren't you saying that wood price really didn't have an effect on how small builders come up with a final price? I know the labor and workmanship is a huge part of what you "buy" with a custom bass, but so long as a builder can up charge for a given wood, then it most certainly influences the end price. I think we're agreeing on this?

 

[jason weatherby]

Signature 99%

 

[Hopkins]

So at the end of the day, small builders do see a profit from selecting "higher grade" woods. Weren't you saying that wood price really didn't have an effect on how small builders come up with a final price? I know the labor and workmanship is a huge part of what you "buy" with a custom bass, but so long as a builder can up charge for a given wood, then it most certainly influences the end price. I think we're agreeing on this?

My point was that some builders use the notion that some woods sound better than others so they can up sell their customers a bass made out of more expensive wood. Does an ebony fretboard sound different than a maple fretboard? Perhaps a little bit, but does it sound $250 dollars better? Doubt it, but its aesthetic value could be worth the difference, even though the mark up is a bit of a ripoff. Ever notice that nobody ever says that an ugly uninteresting species of wood is a good tone wood? Wood should be chosen for its aesthetic value.

Another company which is held in high regard on this sight sells a Gabon Ebony fretboard for a $1000 up charge, which is a total rip off, and an employee of said company is always talking about how important the wood is for the over all tone of an instrument. Think there is a connection there?

 

[petrus61]

My point was that some builders use the notion that some woods sound better than others so they can up sell their customers a bass made out of more expensive wood. Does an ebony fretboard sound different than a maple fretboard? Perhaps a little bit, but does it sound $250 dollars better? Doubt it, but its aesthetic value could be worth the difference, even though the mark up is a bit of a ripoff. Ever notice that nobody ever says that an ugly uninteresting species of wood is a good tone wood? Wood should be chosen for its aesthetic value.

Another company which is held in high regard on this sight sells a Gabon Ebony fretboard for a $1000 up charge, which is a total rip off, and an employee of said company is always talking about how important the wood is for the over all tone of an instrument. Think there is a connection there?

Of course there is. It all comes down to what's been proven to be pleasing to a particular persons ears really. Do I think builders play up the tone wood thing? Absolutely. But I think it's a little harder to argue that certain woods impart certain qualities...and by certain woods I mean maybe two of the same species. No two blanks or necks will wield the exact same results no matter how you cut it. But no two finger types will either. I do think there is an inherent quality to woods though, but its most definitely exaggerated. I like to refer to the knocking technique used by some builders where they judge an expected acoustic frequency response by simply rapping on the wood. Some alder is more dense, some less. But bang on a piece of alder and then bang on some mahogany with your bare knuckle and the acoustic differences are obvious.

 

[Hopkins]

Of course there is. It all comes down to what's been proven to be pleasing to a particular persons ears really. Do I think builders play up the tone wood thing? Absolutely. But I think it's a little harder to argue that certain woods impart certain qualities...and by certain woods I mean maybe two of the same species. No two blanks or necks will wield the exact same results no matter how you cut it. But no two finger types will either. I do think there is an inherent quality to woods though, but its most definitely exaggerated. I like to refer to the knocking technique used by some builders where they judge an expected acoustic frequency response by simply rapping on the wood. Some alder is more dense, some less. But bang on a piece of alder and then bang on some mahogany with your bare knuckle and the acoustic differences are obvious.

So we agree that the whole tone wood thing is grossly exaggerated, especially when it comes to a sales pitch. I don't think these people are lying. I think that over the years they became convinced.

 

[petrus61]

So we agree that the whole tone wood thing is grossly exaggerated, especially when it comes to a sales pitch. I don't think these people are lying. I think that over the years they became convinced.

Yes indeed. Builders stake part of their reps on "tonewoods" and use it as a sales pitch. But there is some truth to it all, IMO. Just not to the degree that warrants a $180 up charge. On the other hand, do I want a basswood, agathis or poplar Fender? Nope.

 

[Hopkins]

Yes indeed. Builders stake part of their reps on "tonewoods" and use it as a sales pitch. But there is some truth to it all, IMO. Just not to the degree that warrants a $180 up charge. On the other hand, do I want a basswood, agathis or poplar Fender? Nope.

If its a solid color I don't care what its made of.

 

[awilkie84]

Pickups/Pre - 60%
Body density - 2%
Neck density - 3%
Strings - 20%
Snobbery - 5%

Neckthru/Bolt-on has NEVER ONCE resulted in different tone/playability for me. The same goes for woods. My rosewood board P sounds identical to my maple board P and my Neckthru BTB sounds the same as my bolt-on BTB.

 

[awilkie84]

Yes indeed. Builders stake part of their reps on "tonewoods" and use it as a sales pitch. But there is some truth to it all, IMO. Just not to the degree that warrants a $180 up charge. On the other hand, do I want a basswood, agathis or poplar Fender? Nope.

I'll give you Agathis, but Basswood & Poplar? That's just sheer snob. They're awesome woods to use! Why do you think the Bongos are basswood?

 

[petrus61]

I'll give you Agathis, but Basswood & Poplar? That's just sheer snob. They're awesome woods to use! Why do you think the Bongos are basswood?

They are awesome, but not on a Fender Precision or Jazz bass, IMO.

 

[Major Softie]

My point was that some builders use the notion that some woods sound better than others so they can up sell their customers a bass made out of more expensive wood. Does an ebony fretboard sound different than a maple fretboard? Perhaps a little bit, but does it sound $250 dollars better?

What the hell is $250 "better?" "Different" I understand. Paying an extra $250 for the tone I "want" I understand.

Paying for a sound you want has nothing to do with "better," or "$250 better." All that matters is if there really is a difference, it IS what you want, you can afford it, and you're willing to pay.

Yes, as in all pursuits, marketing can (and will) exaggerate everything. But, if you want a sound, and the perception is that a particular material will help you get there, then the price will be a function of how much the material actually costs, the difficulty of working on the material, and, most importantly, what people are willing to pay for it.

 

[Doom Bass]

That doesn't sound right.

I'd look at two things first.

1) cap value
If it's a .022uF or .047uF you could temporarily clip/twist an additional cap to increase the value. That will knock off some of the high end.

2) pickup - height and wiring
1/16" increments in pickup height will have a noticeable effect on tone. Try raising and lowering it (take measurements) and see if it improves.
Also, if you didn't get it new, it could be wired wrong. Are the coils wired in series RW/RP as usual for a P bass?

I did get it second hand but the person that owned it never played it so I doubt it was re wired from stock.

The cap value is interesting because I did take it to a guy to check the caps as I had an idea of changing them but he didnt think it was a good idea. I'll check wat is in there (practice tonight so will check tomorrow).

I have played with th pickup hights a fair bit...but not in a calculated way. I will try that. Drop them both and take notes as I raise them.

Cheers man...most helpfull!

 

[Hopkins]

What the hell is $250 "better?" "Different" I understand. Paying an extra $250 for the tone I "want" I understand.

Paying for a sound you want has nothing to do with "better," or "$250 better." All that matters is if there really is a difference, it IS what you want, you can afford it, and you're willing to pay.

Yes, as in all pursuits, marketing can (and will) exaggerate everything. But, if you want a sound, and the perception is that a particular material will help you get there, then the price will be a function of how much the material actually costs, the difficulty of working on the material, and, most importantly, what people are willing to pay for it.

Did you even read my posts? Or are you just trying to argue? The up charge people put on ebony is no where close to actual price difference between ebony and maple/rosewood. But they put a huge price tag on it and people think it sounds better. Your damn right that builder just loves it, because he just sold a bass for hundreds of dollars more, with out doing any extra work, and minimal extra material cost.

 

[miholc]

Pickups/Pre - 60%
Body density - 2%
Neck density - 3%
Strings - 20%
Snobbery - 5%

Does not compute

 

[JustForSport]

"Originally Posted by awilkie84
Pickups/Pre - 60%
Body density - 2%
Neck density - 3%
Strings - 20%
Snobbery - 5%"
+ Hi-Mass Belt Buckle- 10%
= 100%