These things are nothing compared to the success Bugera is currently enjoying with their guitar amps. The have cloned everything from Twin Reverbs to Triple Rectifiers. And of course guitarists go "OMGCHEAPTUBEFULLSTACKS" and buy them.
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If Behringer and Ampeg had a crack baby....
- Thread starter splitcoilsenior
- Start date
To my knowledge, that's not true concerning their circuits.
As far as I know, they've never lost a suit, though they settled over trade dress beefs -- which are essentially BS as far as I'm concerned.
I'd also be surprised if this is really that close a copy of Ampeg once you get it opened up. EVERY "exact ripoff" Beringer product I've seen was in truth substantially different with numerous cut corners over the so-called copied device.
Behringer stuff is nowhere nearly as much a rip off as they'd like you to believe they are.
Anyhow, if the circuits are nonpatentable (and this covers virtually all music electronics), I'm 100% for anyone making them cheaper and more available to more people.
That's the intent of US patent law.
electronic circuits can, and have been patented.. so, you can remove the "if".. as to copyrighting circuits, it's another story..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer
under lawsuits.. read up..
IMO, Behringer is capitalizing on minimal modification of existing circuits and production in China.. it would be one thing if they were producing a product that was simply cheaper.. but, they capitalize by using market confusion by styling their products to actually look like the product they are copying.. not to mention the non-existent factory service/warranties.. and the painfully short life expectancy of said product..
enjoy cheap equipment.. by all means..
and the BVT-5500H does sound SS Ampeg-ish.. there's only three settings that are remotely useful.. i know, because the shop i worked for had these things for sale..
LOUD makes copycats of Ampeg amps in far away factories and sells them as "Ampeg" for Ampeg prices.
So far the Bugera amps have been holding up for Guitar players.
I personally would by no means dare comparing Ampeg factories with Behringer City. Instead of looking at one's bank account, listening to the sound may be a good way for someone who plays music.
Quality-wise, my "far-away" Ampegs caused me no issue so far. Can't say the same about the SLM ones I had before. Go figure.
To my knowledge, that's not true concerning their circuits.
As far as I know, they've never lost a suit, though they settled over trade dress beefs -- which are essentially BS as far as I'm concerned.
I'd also be surprised if this is really that close a copy of Ampeg once you get it opened up. EVERY "exact ripoff" Beringer product I've seen was in truth substantially different with numerous cut corners over the so-called copied device.
Behringer stuff is nowhere nearly as much a rip off as they'd like you to believe they are.
Anyhow, if the circuits are nonpatentable (and this covers virtually all music electronics), I'm 100% for anyone making them cheaper and more available to more people.
That's the intent of US patent law.
+1
Behringer did loose 1 lawsuit over 20 years ago, from Aphex and bad advice from a lawyer.
Other ones have been settled. No winner or loser is known to the public.
Patents can be renewed, Copyrights and trademarks also. But if they haven't been renewed you can take old designs and freely copy them. I couldn't see any company not doing this without adding improvements which can be new patents.
Even if there is a current patent or copyright - one company can license it to another. Nobody outside the two companies know.
If I had a product, and couldn't produce it at a price that a major manufacturer like Behringer could, you bet I'd try to license it to them to get it on the market at an affordable price. It happens in other industries all the time.
Ampeg doesn't have their own factories. They have the built by other factories for them.
I'd buy that Bugera tube head over a new Ampeg SVT-CL. I've had no problems with the Behringer stuff I've used and I question whether the quality is worse than a LOUD SVT (not that they are bad, just no one seems to have given the Bugera a shot to make a distinction).
so what? they're still very high quality amps made with good parts and the legal right to put them out as ampeg amps (well, they weren't for a couple years but they are now). behringer uses cheap crap and copies their designs from the hard work of other people.
Anyway, to each his own. If anybody wants to state that Behringer are the best amps worldwide just because they are cheaper, then power to them.
For my part, I'll pay 2,300 € for a Heritage SVT-CL, but would not even spend 200 in that fake-SVTCL Behringer head. Actually, even if I had it for free, I would not use it.
For my part, I'll pay 2,300 € for a Heritage SVT-CL, but would not even spend 200 in that fake-SVTCL Behringer head. Actually, even if I had it for free, I would not use it.
right. good point. it's all reverse engineered using a huge warehouse of cheap crappy parts uli behringer bought for a song. if a part is needed that they don't already have, they just substitute something they do have. so you're right...models is a better choice of words.
never will, either. imho behringer is unethical and their business model disgusts me. i don't care if it sounds BETTER than an SVT.
but hey, far be it from me to question what someone else will buy. if you're comfortable with it, so be it.
I somewhat see your point and maybe you are referring to something beyond making copies of other companies' products. If it's just the latter, I don't see the difference between Lakland, Sadowsky, SX, Epiphone, Lull, etc. making models that are more or less Fender designs. Same can be said for Hartke or Alembic using the Fender tone stack design in pre-amps. Only other thing I am aware of is a lot of folks thinking they make shoddy gear. Maybe I'm just lucky that I've had good or great experiences with their products.
If I am missing something here, I'm curious... time to do some searching through the forums.
As long as the quality of components will still be a major factor in quality of tone, this won't happen.
You know my dad built me a number of different amplfiers both for bass and for amateur radio. Usually used all sorts of old parts from TVs and other sources. Building a point to point Class AB audio amp is not rocket science and nowere near as complex as a modern SS amp that uses surface mount technology.
Ampegs are not worth the money they are asking. This amp may be fine if it is indeed point to point.It's also easy to fix them. Just look for were the fire was.
Ampegs are not worth the money they are asking. This amp may be fine if it is indeed point to point.It's also easy to fix them. Just look for were the fire was.
First, about Fender, only the headstock design and the "Jazz Bass", "Precision Bass", "J-Bass", "P-Bass" trademarks are licenced.
Second, I never heard or read Dan Lakin, Roger Sadowsky, or any other manufacturer, state that they would provide a Fender with "double the features, half the price". They have brought something different out of the bases of Fender designs. SX have always delivered decent Fender copies. As far as I remember, they have been sued for making Musicman copies, though.
Now, what do Behringer/Bugera state ? "Double the features, half the price". Which means at a portion of the price of a real SVT, you will get much better than an SVT.
Call it whatever you want. I call this a lie. Deceptive, to say the least.
That's exactly my point : people stating that Behringer are better, just because they think they'll save some money getting one. Can't wait until the first "woops, my Bugera BVV300 failed on me at first gig" threads pop out here soon.
I think you could call the marketing of most, if not all, manufacturers deceptive to an extent. Prime example: Wattage amps produce. Some base it on RMS, some base it on peak, some somewhere between the two, and some seem arbitrarily pulled out of their rear. I'd say Ampeg and their SS amps may be most guilty of the latter (particularly the SVT 450 head. Most users seem to report that it doesn't put out anywhere near the advertised 450 watts @ 4 ohms.)
Regarding the copies argument, there are a ton of boutique builders out there who's products are nearly identical copies of circuits from other builders but I have yet to see any disdain voiced against these builders. In fact, they are generally praised for it.
If I was tempted to by one and only would if it WAS point to point wired I'd try to get a discount for one without tubes. Then I'd go over every cold soldered joint you can find which is probably a lot of them. The rest of the components may be iffy but so's anything you buy these days.The thing that will really matter is how good the audio transformer is. I doubt Ampeg is using American made parts. Peavey is selling stuff from China.
jdthebassman
play to live live to play
behringer stuff is crap, worse than peavey. guitar center does not carry the line anymore because of the return rate. you get what you pay for.I use an alembic f1x preamp,carver pm 900 power amp all hand made in the usa.it costs a lot but well worth it.
