If speaker size does not affect tone, why do they exist?

[gbarchus]

"Frequency does not have a speed. It's a frequency. The speaker is either capable of a frequency or it isn't, there is no speed."

Can people really tell that one speaker reproduces 42Hz faster than another? We're talking 42 cycles per SECOND, right?

So much for 10s are faster than 15s

 

[jungleheat]

Mixing cabs is fine. It MAY cause issues that MIGHT result in less good sound. Or it could sound awesome.

BUT, adding a 2x12 to a 4x10 is kind of pointless. 10s and 12s are too close to really make much of a difference. Plus, assuming 2 8 ohm cabs, each 12 is going to be getting twice as much power as each 10, and that makes it a lot easier to blow the 12s if you're not careful (and limits the 4x10 to what the 2x12 can handle).

 

[RickenBoogie]

There is far too much inaccurate information on this thread already. And, on a topic that's been beat to death. Apparently, science was not a strong subject for many bassists, and neither was reading comprehension.

 

[jarrydee]

Mixing cabs is fine. It MAY cause issues that MIGHT result in less good sound. Or it could sound awesome.

BUT, adding a 2x12 to a 4x10 is kind of pointless. 10s and 12s are too close to really make much of a difference. Plus, assuming 2 8 ohm cabs, each 12 is going to be getting twice as much power as each 10, and that makes it a lot easier to blow the 12s if you're not careful (and limits the 4x10 to what the 2x12 can handle).

ok thank you. TC says you can mix 3 of their cabs, my 410 is 4 ohm, the 212 is 8...I just though I would get some more bottom end by adding the 12's...you just saved me some cash...thank you!

 

[66Atlas]

I think I'll build a cabinet with 24 3X9 car audio speakers....I bet it will rip! I could even put them on the sides of the tower to work as a fill moniter for the drums.

 

[f.c.geil]

There is far too much inaccurate information on this thread already. And, on a topic that's been beat to death. Apparently, science was not a strong subject for many bassists, and neither was reading comprehension.

Where's the "Like" button?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

That's what I love about America, Bill. Everyone thinks their opinion is valid (whether or not science, truth, fact, and reality can back them up), and is at least as good as that of anyone else. It's funny, too, how so many will continue to argue against reality, even after a true expert has proven their hypothesis to be utterly fallacious.

There are two ways to address one's ignorance of technical facts. One is to embrace it. The other is to read a book or two. You don't have to be an engineer to see which path has been taken by the various posters in this thread. :scowl:

 

[LarryO]

Speaker size has become as controversial as religion.....lol

 

[jarrydee]

Speaker size has become as controversial as religion.....lol

ya, but you can see the speaker size, your not just taking someones word for it!

 

[nutdog]

I appreciate science but I went to a wedding last night and dude was playing a squire 5 thru an old peavey SS head and Mesa 410, no PA. Some of the best bass tone I've heard in a long time. All thru the room. Go figure.

 

[LarryO]

ya, but you can see the speaker size, your not just taking someones word for it!

or can you? Hmmmmm

 

[LarryO]

If they reproduce sound, not just speaking, why are they called speakers instead of sounders?

 

[f.c.geil]

There are two ways to address one's ignorance of technical facts. One is to embrace it. The other is to read a book or two. You don't have to be an engineer to see which path has been taken by the various posters in this thread. :scowl:

You got that right!

 

[iualum]

There is far too much inaccurate information on this thread already. And, on a topic that's been beat to death. Apparently, science was not a strong subject for many bassists, and neither was reading comprehension.

...wanna be musicians (and even some real ones)...what are you going to do? ...

 

[BLDavis]

I'm probably one of the biggest spec freaks out there, and yet my advice is still that if it sounds good, and you're happy with aspects such as portability and power handling, then keep it.

fdeck for the win.

 

[scotch]

While speaker size itself doesn't directly affect tone, overall speaker cabinet design does. I know if I plug into two different cabs with different drivers, they're gonna sound different. I think that's a good thing!

For me, it isn't ALL about relative specs, xmax, dispersion, etc... its about how it sounds and responds to me as a musician. I'm not providing pa (given, I'm fortunate that I virtually always play gigs with professional pa support), I'm creating a comprehensive sound that accomplishes several goals, including (but not limited to):
- providing an on-stage monitor
- giving me an interactive experience that inspires me to play in a certain way
- allowing for a complementary tone that augments a basic, clean di to the foh or studio mix

I suppose that it's technically possible to use the same size driver to match cabinets, say make a 5" driver loaded cab sound like a typical 1x15. But would it be practical? I dunno. The engineers are better equipped to answer that. Point is, not everyone wants the best-case-scenario, most efficient and impressively spec'ed speaker cabinet 'solution'. I want a cab that sounds good to me & inspires me with a unique experience.

I also understand and recognize that there is a need for high-dispersion, relatively neutral and predictable speaker cabinets for other applications! I get it. That's exactly what I want in a critical studio environment, or if I have a very specific tonal goal to reproduce consistently. I'm no Luddite, but I recognize that there are different products for different applications & that tone isn't always about efficiency.

 

[1958Bassman]

Is this an acid test?

Some much more informed answers will come by dawn.

Big speakers move more air. Old big speakers couldn't keep up with power demands so multiple 10's became the standard despite crummy dispersion. Big speakers need smaller speakers crossing over to cover full range as well as small speakers and some.

No one cab suits everyone.

No such thing as a fast speaker, they are all moving forward and back at the same rate, 100hz is 100hz only after 1 iteration, lasting 1/100th of a second whatever the speaker, followed up by the rest of the note, die myth DIE!

What if the larger speaker being considered has a motor assembly of less mass than the smaller driver? The argument that a larger cone requires more power to move isn't valid, then. However, large cones don't reproduce high frequencies, so an 18" won't be able to provide full-range sound. The only way to determine how fast or slow a speaker is, is by using an accelerometer and watching for changes to the waveform, using an oscilloscope.

 

[Bassamatic]

There is far too much inaccurate information on this thread already. And, on a topic that's been beat to death. Apparently, science was not a strong subject for many bassists, and neither was reading comprehension.

This thread is as full of myths and misinformation as the ones on amplifier power vs. loudness.

Due to acoustic generation issues, and our hearing rolloff at low frequencies, you need to move as much air as possible at the lowest end. You get more cone area and lowest cost having the largest single driver that fits in your desired cabinet size. That is why you have different size drivers. If you don't care about how big the box is, you can use 16 4s, like was done in the early days of hi-fi. However, ONE 15" driver has the cone area of TWENTY EIGHT 4s. and 2.25 10s.

Frequency response = speed. The cone has to move faster to reproduce high frequencies. The sound of a bass string being plucked has a more than the fundamental to it - there are a lot of overtones. Even if you hit the low E or B, there are the attack frequencies that have to be created. Without the ability move fast, the sound will get duller.

Headphones do not relate to our needs - they are essentially directly coupled to our eardrums by a small air column. Speakers have to radiate in a total sphere, pushing all the air in the world.

 

[fdeck]

Actually, not to nitpick, but frequency response is better modeled by cone acceleration than by speed. Sound pressure is related to the acceleration of the cone, and its frontal area. An ideal piston with a flat acceleration curve will have flat frequency response until beaming takes over.

The "magic" of a speaker is that such a simplistic structure actually achieves constant acceleration for a given voltage input across a wide range of frequencies. The low frequency rolloff occurs below the resonant frequency of the cone in the box, and the high frequency behavior is affected by beaming and cone breakup.

This, incidentally, is why the frequency response of a speaker is typically measured with a constant voltage source, rather than a constant power source.

 

[Joe Louvar]

EDIT: Title shoud read "If different speaker sizes don't affect tone, why do they exist?" Sorry.


I've been told here in this forum (more than once) that different speaker sizes have .. and I quote .. "Zero affect on bass tone". If that is true, then what is the point of offering them?

If true, why isn't there just a ten inch bass speaker, and use either more or less of them to suit the application? For smaller, lower powered amps you'd use only one. As loudness requirements go up, add power and more drivers to move more air. Different manufacturers could still build "their type" to offer variety. Tens seem to suit slappers well enough as they have low enough mass to respond all super quick, and with enough of them they are plenty loud enough for rockers. And if desired they can be slowed down enough to "soften" the attack a little through amplification circuit-type changes. So it seems to me that if there are no tonal differences, there is no need for anything other than the time proven ten inch.

If the idea that different size speakers offer "no" tonal differences is valid, what's the point of manufacturing them?

Personally, I'm having a tough time buying the idea that speaker size has no affect on bass tone. However I could be wrong, I'm wrong about things all the time.

Thanks.

Because some larger speakers move more air, handle more power, have better venting and etc. For example - just because an 8” woofer may be able to cover the same freq.‘s as a 15” woofer doesn’t mean it can do it at the same volume level (SPL) as a good 15" woofer - that’s the reason why there are no high power sub woofers the size of a dime.

Here is some more food for thought ~

Watts matter - for example, when replacing a light bulb in a lamp fixture you will see a warning sticker that reads something like CAUTION: To reduce the risk of fire use a 60 WATT type A or smaller lamp. If watts didn’t matter there wouldn’t be any fire risk or warning stickers on lamps.

And, no a light bulb is not a speaker but this is another example of wattage mattering (common sense too).

And this is what Eminence engineers say ~

Power handling
This specification is very important to transducer selection. Obviously, you need to choose a loudspeaker that is capable of handling the input power you are going to provide. <snip> The ideal situation is to choose a loudspeaker that has the capability of handling more power than you can provide lending some headroom and insurance against thermal failure. <snip>

(Speaker size matters too)

Generally speaking, the number one contributor to a transducer&#8217;s power rating is its ability to release thermal energy. This is affected by several design choices, but most notably voice coil size, magnet size, venting, and the adhesives used in voice coil construction. Larger coil and magnet sizes provide more area for heat to dissipate, while venting allows thermal energy to escape and cooler air to enter the motor structure. Equally important is the ability of the voice coil to handle thermal energy. Eminence is renowned for its use of proprietary adhesives and components that maximize the voice coil&#8217;s ability to handle extreme temperatures. Mechanical factors must also be considered when determining power handling. A transducer might be able to handle 1,000W from a thermal perspective, but would fail long before that level was reached from a mechanical issue such as the coil hitting the back plate, the coil coming out of the gap, the cone buckling from too much outward movement, or the spider bottoming on the top plate. The most common cause of such a failure would be asking the speaker to produce more low frequencies than it could mechanically produce at the rated power. Be sure to consider the suggested usable frequency range and the Xlim parameter in conjunction with the power rating to avoid such failures. <snip>
http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/
----------------------------------------

Picking the right speakers for your bass amplifier.

Over powering a speaker can damage it and a impedance mismatch can damaged an amplifier. See Eminence&#8216;s webpage http://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data and look under &#8220;POWER HANDLING&#8221;. And Myers Sound &#8220;Making Sense of Amplifier Power Ratings&#8221; [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Power - the ideal situation is to choose a loudspeaker that has the capability of handling more power than you can provide lending some headroom and insurance against thermal failure. If you don&#8217;t know how much power a speaker cab can handle, slowly turn up the bass amp volume until the speaker starts to sound bad, then turn down the bass or volume until it sounds good.

DO NOT connect speakers with a total power handling capacity below the power output rating of your amplifier. If your amplifier is rated at 400 watts at 4 ohms, then the combined power handling of your speaker enclosures should be 400 watts RMS or higher at 4 ohms. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Ohms - make sure the speaker cab impedance meets the bass amp requirements. Look on the back of your bass amp and note the required speaker load (ohms) and make sure the impedances of your speakers match. DO NOT connect speakers with a combined total impedance that is below the minimum rating of your amplifier. Doing so may cause damage to your gear. Using speakers with a total impedance above the minimum power rating of your amplifier is safe. See http://www.eminence.com/support/wiring-diagrams

Speaker stacking. 1dB is considered the least amount of SPL gain the human ear can hear and 3dB is considered the least useable amount of SPL in the real world by most (with some opposition) and it takes about 10dB to double the volume (SPL). See http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.htm If you have a 100 watt amp with one 12" speaker and you add another incidental 12" speaker you will get the magic 3dB increase. You would have the same SPL as a 200 watt amp with one 12" speaker (if the driver isn&#8217;t already maxed out). To get the next 3dB increase you need to double the speakers again so you would need four incidental 12" speakers. Having 4 speakers will give you a 6dB increase in SPL compared to 1 speaker. Then it gets more complex. If you double the 4 speakers to 8 speakers there isn&#8217;t a 9dB increase in SPL as compared to one speaker like you&#8217;d think, instead you only a 6dB increase compared to one speaker because phase cancellation comes into play. The distance between the speakers causes the sound to reach your ears from some of the speakers at a different time and this has the effect of canceling some sound so more speakers are better up to a point. Drivers, enclosures, power, impedance, etc all play a role in the SPL. Also checkout the Bass Guitar Magazine articles by Barefaced http://barefacedbass.com/bgm-columns.htm expressly http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Volume-displacement.htm

Power - peak, continuous, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power

Speaker size also matters when it comes to moving air (SPL) - cone area.

How to calculate cone area.
Cone area = pi x (r x r)
pi = 3.14 r = radius of sub

# 8&#8221; 10&#8221; 12&#8221; 15&#8221; 18&#8221;
-----------------------------------------------------
1 50 78 113 176 254
2 100 157 226 353 508
3 150 235 339 530 763
4 201 314 452 706 1017
5 251 392 565 883 1272
6 301 471 678 1060 1526
7 351 549 791 1236 1781
8 402 628 904 1413 2035
NOTE: All numbers rounded down to the nearest inch.

Drivers, enclosures, power, etc all are factors - and speaker size does matter when it comes to moving air (SPL), etc and shouldn&#8217;t be downplayed. And remember the cab is built around the speaker and not the other way around.