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I'll Never Play for Free Again

#241
overdrivethree said:
(snip)...
played a free gig once, opening for a local guy who'd migrated to and from Nashville (another pop country clone who kept hitting the wall down there). he was in town to "raise some money" for his next venture to Tennessee. the show was an hour drive for us, we played for the allotted time (one hour), and he just shook our hands at the end of the night and said "thanks for coming." like, really? not even gas money to get back up to the city? truthfully, i don't know why we even played the show (i never could stand the guy...self-important preening star wannabe). but that one instance drove home the point that i'd prefer to be charge of the gig process as much as possible, whether low-key or bigger (100+ capacity).
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Or, more ideally, have a good promoter do it for me, who's not only better at it than I am, but leaves me free to do what I do, and be the "bad guy" for me. In my experience, if at all possible, it's best to avoid having someone in the band take care of business. It's important for the talent buyer not to talk directly to the band, because that forces you into a role you don't want to be in, sociologically. It's kind of like the good cop/bad cop thing. The agent, promoter, whoever can ask for things and get what the band needs without worrying about looking like a jerk. He can take the heat for the band and diffuse the situation if things get nasty. Talent buyers will tell things to promoters that they won't tell to bands directly. A good promoter can talk business in a way that separates you from the process and gives the perception that you're an artist, and your time is too valuable to do things like settle up and have someone to do it for you. This is a good perception for club owners to have.

Also, talent buyers are less willing to piss off a promoter, because losing the trust of a good promoter means losing ALL of his bands, too, not just the one playing there that night. In my experience, they are worth the 10-15% they charge.

There are other advantages: It leaves the band free to interact with fans, which means you sell more CDs and merch. I will never forget the first time I played a show with roadies: While it was nice to give my back a break, the real advantage is that as soon as I got off stage, I could go up and talk to people! They were excited about our set, some had questions about our gear, some just wanted to congratulate us on our performance, etc. This gave us a great opportunity to talk up our latest CD and kind-of herd them over to the merch booth... We sold enough extra CDs & merch that night just by doing that to more than cover the cost of the roadies. It was an eye-opening experience. The same goes for a promoter: You don't have to worry about settling up right away; you can relax, have a beer with people, and make some friends/fans, which is really what long-term success in this business is all about. I've gotten so many fill-in & session gigs by just chatting with other musicians at shows I'm playing, which I couldn't do if I spent the 30 minutes immediately following my set loading out and trying to deal with getting paid, too.

Hope this helps.
 
#242
those are all fantastic points, Dave.

i guess the inherent problem is, just where i'm at a musician, the "angle" from which i and my projects work, isn't necessarily in such a "professional" capacity. i don't mean that in a pejorative way at all. but on a local level, i tend to "jam econo," to paraphrase Mike Watt. set up small shows, set realistic goals for our means, and maybe pack a small/medium bar with 100-200 people on a good night. they might be there to see one of the bands, two of the bands, or maybe they just wandered in and decided to pay the $4 and stick around.

but the roadie thing is spot on. when i'm done playing, the first thing i want to do get an impression of how we sounded, how the songs came off. but having to clear out and haul gear is essentially putting up a wall around yourself saying, "don't talk to me." while i think there's a nobility in being completely in charge of your stuff, it's a huge pain in the neck. i can only imagine it would suck when you're touring, you just want to talk to people, see a friendly face, but instead have to haul out gear.

give it a couple posts, i'll relate the nightmare story where i ended up playing promoter for a touring band that kinda just leeched onto me via MySpace. ohhhh, never again!
 
#243
One thing you can do is, after your set, say into the mic, "We'd love to hear from you; please don't be afraid to come up and talk to us, and stick around for [next band]. Thanks!" before you get off the stage. If you are hauling your own gear, when people come up to you, say, "I really do want to talk to you, give me just a minute here to get my stuff out of the way and I'll be right back, and we can have a beer." I've found that if you are just kind to people and honest with them, they usually do stick around to chat after. I've met a lot of really great people this way, and selling more merch is icing on the cake.
 
#244
OK, I've read some of the posts, and it's pretty apparent that there is something of a divide here.

Bottom line for me is this:

Even if it's a "hobby", you still have overhead to contend with - gear, gas to get to and from both gigs and rehearsals - not to mention that the TIME you have put into it to be able to get out and play a gig in a public establishment that is making money due to the effort you are putting forth. You know, personal practice time, band rehearsals, your time driving yourself to and from rehearsals and gigs.

I don't know about you, but I figure my time to be worth about $20/hr based on my income. I will never make that kind of return on my investment in a band situation, but I'll be damned if I ever go out for less than $100/night.

I'm no longer a "pro", just a "semi-pro" at this point, it isn't my primary income, and never will be again. However, my time is still worth something, and anything or anyone that devalues my time is not worth the effort it will take me to tell them to go **** themselves for expecting me to work for no return (as with many others, there are charity functions that I will consider, that is a totally different issue). The person I will say that to is not just a club owner, but ANY MUSICIAN THAT WILL GO TAKE THAT SAME WORK FOR NO MONEY, BECAUSE HE IS REMOVING THAT COMPENSATION NOT ONLY FROM MY POCKETS, BUT FROM EVERY OTHER MUSICIAN THAT WILL FOLLOW HIM IN THE DOOR.

Yes, this means YOU, if you go play in a club for free, for any reason.

The only way to stop this rip off act is to as a group, ALL musicians, refuse to give your time, talents, and efforts away for less than you deserve to receive for them.

If you think it's "art" and you shouldn't be compensated, fine, either STAY HOME, or take the money and donate it to whatever you consider a worthy cause, but keep your hands out of my and every other sensible musician's wallet.

...thanks for listening...
 
#245
Couldn't have said it better if I tried ! "hobbyist" musicians doin it just cause " I love to play " pls take note and consider stayin home for the rest of our sakes..

Gard said:
OK, I've read some of the posts, and it's pretty apparent that there is something of a divide here.

Bottom line for me is this:

Even if it's a "hobby", you still have overhead to contend with - gear, gas to get to and from both gigs and rehearsals - not to mention that the TIME you have put into it to be able to get out and play a gig in a public establishment that is making money due to the effort you are putting forth. You know, personal practice time, band rehearsals, your time driving yourself to and from rehearsals and gigs.

I don't know about you, but I figure my time to be worth about $20/hr based on my income. I will never make that kind of return on my investment in a band situation, but I'll be damned if I ever go out for less than $100/night.

I'm no longer a "pro", just a "semi-pro" at this point, it isn't my primary income, and never will be again. However, my time is still worth something, and anything or anyone that devalues my time is not worth the effort it will take me to tell them to go **** themselves for expecting me to work for no return (as with many others, there are charity functions that I will consider, that is a totally different issue). The person I will say that to is not just a club owner, but ANY MUSICIAN THAT WILL GO TAKE THAT SAME WORK FOR NO MONEY, BECAUSE HE IS REMOVING THAT COMPENSATION NOT ONLY FROM MY POCKETS, BUT FROM EVERY OTHER MUSICIAN THAT WILL FOLLOW HIM IN THE DOOR.

Yes, this means YOU, if you go play in a club for free, for any reason.

The only way to stop this rip off act is to as a group, ALL musicians, refuse to give your time, talents, and efforts away for less than you deserve to receive for them.

If you think it's "art" and you shouldn't be compensated, fine, either STAY HOME, or take the money and donate it to whatever you consider a worthy cause, but keep your hands out of my and every other sensible musician's wallet.

...thanks for listening...
Click to expand...
 
#246
Gard said:
OK, I've read some of the posts, and it's pretty apparent that there is something of a divide here.

Bottom line for me is this:

Even if it's a "hobby", you still have overhead to contend with - gear, gas to get to and from both gigs and rehearsals - not to mention that the TIME you have put into it to be able to get out and play a gig in a public establishment that is making money due to the effort you are putting forth. You know, personal practice time, band rehearsals, your time driving yourself to and from rehearsals and gigs.

I don't know about you, but I figure my time to be worth about $20/hr based on my income. I will never make that kind of return on my investment in a band situation, but I'll be damned if I ever go out for less than $100/night.

I'm no longer a "pro", just a "semi-pro" at this point, it isn't my primary income, and never will be again. However, my time is still worth something, and anything or anyone that devalues my time is not worth the effort it will take me to tell them to go **** themselves for expecting me to work for no return (as with many others, there are charity functions that I will consider, that is a totally different issue). The person I will say that to is not just a club owner, but ANY MUSICIAN THAT WILL GO TAKE THAT SAME WORK FOR NO MONEY, BECAUSE HE IS REMOVING THAT COMPENSATION NOT ONLY FROM MY POCKETS, BUT FROM EVERY OTHER MUSICIAN THAT WILL FOLLOW HIM IN THE DOOR.

Yes, this means YOU, if you go play in a club for free, for any reason.

The only way to stop this rip off act is to as a group, ALL musicians, refuse to give your time, talents, and efforts away for less than you deserve to receive for them.

If you think it's "art" and you shouldn't be compensated, fine, either STAY HOME, or take the money and donate it to whatever you consider a worthy cause, but keep your hands out of my and every other sensible musician's wallet.

...thanks for listening...
Click to expand...

This is a bunch of garbage. The market sets the price. Period. If two things of equal quality are available for a consumer (in this case, the bar owner) and one costs money and the other is free the consumer should always take the free one (again, this assumes no difference in quality). That is the fact of the free market.

That leaves two options for people in bands trying to earn money- justify the cost or do something else. Depending on what size city you live in, you can hop on craigslist right now and find a couple dozen free televisions. Why aren't Best Buy and Wal-Mart up in arms about the unfair competition? Because of one of the golden rules of the free market- you get what you pay for. If your band is unable to justify to a bar owner why you think you're worth money when this other band is willing to play for free, it is you who should stay home. Leave the gigs to the hobbyists.
 
#250
Come on, man. OK, sorry for the 'medicine' remark. But you get what you pay for? Great stuff for free? Contradict much?
Look, I've said it before-you get what you demand. If you show up and accept a couple of beers, well, that's what you get. If you feel you are worth a couple of hundred bucks a man, and you think you can prove it by bringing customers, then demand it. Don't just bend over because you love to play so much.
I guess, by some of the logic displayed here, if I want all the gigs I should just play for free, always. Imagine the exposure I'll get.
 
#252
dmusic148 said:
Come on, man. OK, sorry for the 'medicine' remark. But you get what you pay for? Great stuff for free? Contradict much?
Look, I've said it before-you get what you demand. If you show up and accept a couple of beers, well, that's what you get. If you feel you are worth a couple of hundred bucks a man, and you think you can prove it by bringing customers, then demand it. Don't just bend over because you love to play so much.
I guess, by some of the logic displayed here, if I want all the gigs I should just play for free, always. Imagine the exposure I'll get.
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You're missing the point. Explanations below:

As to free TVs: the reason people still buy TVs instead of just looking for free ones is because they know a new TV is of substantially higher quality than something that is being given away. You get what you pay for.

The same logic applies to bands. If a club can book "Band A" for free and draw 50 people or "Band B" for $500 and draw 50 people they will book "Band A" every time. Hell, if "Band B" draws 75 people it still makes sense to book "Band A". It is the job of the person selling the product to justify that products cost.

However, in most cases a professional band that charges a decent fee is worth the investment by the bar. There should be no real competition from a band that doesn't charge. If there is, that band that is trying to charge needs to find a new line of work because they haven't justified the cost.

We all make these value judgments all the time. Do I want to drink Budweiser or the pricey microbrew? Ultra Premium gas or Regular? Am I happy with my old Dell laptop or do I need the shiny new Apple? Is an SX good enough for me or should I save for a Sadowsky? These same value judgments apply to bands and booking gigs. Should Sadowsky get mad at SX for undercutting his price so much?
 
#253
I just think all of us who play music, as a living or a hobby, should make an effort to receive some compensation. I also believe that everyone who plays music, again as a living or a hobby, should make a effort to bring the best music they can to a venue.

My opinion is that we as musicians are our own worse enemy. Some people get paying gigs then put no effort to attract or retain customers. They just run through the same tunes in a completely non-special way, stop songs and start over, and all other types of unprofessional behavior. Others are just so eager to play that they will play for free no matter how much money they make for a venue. Both sides work together to devalue live music, people WILL NOT spend money in a place where they have to struggle to hear each other over a band of poor quality. This will lose money for a venue and they will fire the band and maybe even stop having live music. The other side creates a situation where nobody can earn a dime no matter how well they do for a club.

I find this debate a little ridiculous, because neither side makes an effort to communicate with the other. Both sides get deeper into their own point of view and fight harder. This cycle doesn't ever end.

I would like to ask the hobbyist musicians this. Why do you find it so offensive to ask for compensation for your efforts?
 
#254
I have commented many times over in threads similar to this one, so much so that it almost feels totally redundant to say all of this again, but .....

The local music scene is in the state it is for a wide variety of reasons, but not so much due to finances as it is due to the peculiar nature of the music business. People who have a hobby that they enjoy, but zero desire to make that hobby more of a vocation, love to appear in public and play the "part" of an entertainer. This obviously devalues the general market for those who take the business of music more seriously.

Conversely, the music field is somewhat overloaded with talented musicians that have a zero desire to truely be professional, therefore they, too, devalue the general market. It amazes me to read through these threads and see how many (theoretical) professionals have no business sense whatsoever.

A quick read through of threads of this ilk will quickly point out those members who are in the business of music & entertainment and those who are trying to accelerate their "hobby". While I can understand both sides (and the many variants of each side) of the argument, the true "Professional" will engage in this trade with the same discipline as any other professional person (doctor, accountant, lawyer, whatever). It is somewhat unique to our field that people with a hobby can interfere with the professional's income, and justify that interference to themselves under the veil of passion ..... :hmm:
 
#255
just ruminating, here...


unfortunately, music is a "business" in the worst sense. i'm not one of those "it's all about the art, maaaan" types. but at the same time, there is a great divide people who are careerists about it, and those who just want to have fun. and i mean the careerists who want to do what's hot right now, and will bandwagon-jump if they think it's going to get them higher on the ladder. and then there's the hobbyists that like to play "rockstar" for their wives and buddies.

i've been in bands with both, and it's terribly frustrating. the careerists are delusional ("all we need to do is tour, and things will magically happen, simply because we poop musical gold"). but the hobbyists practice twice a week for a year, and play ONE show, despite being musically better and selling themselves short.

the worst thing that can happen to art is commerce. but realistically speaking, it's a pain in the neck to get my amp from Point A to Point B, to deal with the drunks, and to be taking care of the details, on top of playing a show. to that end, i think compensation is important. i made my end of the deal happen, and showed up ready to play. for me, actually playing is merely icing on the cake.

and what can't be denied is that, across the board, pro or hobbyist, musicians can be the most self-important, egotistical people on the planet. we're not performing brain surgery. fundamentally, we're just reaching out and helping other people forget their problems for a while. as Slash once put it, there's still rain and taxes. the world won't stop for a guy with a guitar, no matter how great he is.
 
#259
txbasschik said:
Yeah, I'd like to see a bunch of non-union, hobbyist, play-for-free people try to go get gigs and sessions in L.A. or Nashville. It would be very ugly.

As for original v. cover bands and rate of pay...I think *anyone* who has it together enough to form a band, write/learn songs, book gigs, and get their gear set up/torn down ought to be paid *something*. That "something" should reflect the quality of the music and performance, but there should *always* be pay. Then, if your pay doesn't increase, and bands all around you are making more than you in the same venues, then you know you have a problem and need to work harder. But if you get a bunch of free bands out there, no one *cares* about quality, 'cause, hey, its free.

I can see playing one free gig to get paying ones, or bringing your band to an open mic to get a gig in that place. But not as a regular thing. If we've played in your place on audition night, and you didn't get back to us or respond to our followup, we won't come back and do it again. First one might be free, but ya gotta pay for the rest, baybee.

Paying people fosters true competition. Getting it for free fosters indifference.

Cherie
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prolly because nashville/la session guys have banded together to create their own niche,........but the key element here is demand.......nashville and la have that demand, other places dont......

there will always be hobbyists who can afford to play free gigs and youngsters that are easily convinced that fame and fortune lie just beyond the next exposure (pay/play) gig.as long as karaoke,vlt's,etc remain viable options for club owners this kind of thing is the new reality, for good or ill.

im not sure how much can be determined by what kind of money this or that band gets.the argument could be made that trio's are cheaper for club owners thus undercutting larger bands..... quartets undermine quintets..etc........

its not likely to improve any time soon.......just as clubs have their bottom lines,bands will determine their own....some will be well paid and some will pay to play.....its no different than a factory guy being told to work for less or find himself on the street while his job is outsourced.......
 

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