I'll Never Play for Free Again

[armywalaby]

Yes what you are doing is whining. If you're good at what you do then you shouldn't have to worry about people like me. If you complain about not making the money you need even though you're highly trained in a particular area... then have the sense to do something else or stop whining. Don't blame others because you're so stubborn and feel you're owed income because of your experience or supposed professionalism. If someone else is hired at a lesser pay scale than you (such as outsourcing in the IT world) then take it out on the company who is outsourcing, not the person who took the job. THAT's the point you obviously don't get. Don't take it out on fellow musicians... get angry at the industry or companies who feel you're worthless. PERIOD! As for your comments concerning ethics and cheating, keep grasping at straws.... your argument still doesn't hold water.

BTW - yes I've lost work due to outsourcing to India and China... no hard feelings because I know my foreign brothers and sisters need to eat too. I know it's these large companies who try to cut corners so that their goals to increase their profit margin by 25% is met are to blame. But you know what? Eventually these CEOs, CTOs, and CFOs who thought cutting corners was a good idea to line their own pockets with absurd wealth finally come to realize that it's in their best interest to pay for quality work from quality people in an environment where accountability matters. And if, sometime down the line, there aren't any more IT jobs for me then who cares? I go on and find work as a welder, metalsmith, woodworker, technical illustrator, research technician, freelance draftsman or a number of other jobs I've held in the past... because I don't whine nor do I blame my supposed competition for wanting to attain the same goals as I.STOP WHINING!!

We're not talking about playing for 'less' and we're not talking about outsourcing bands from India to play here for less. It is absurd for you to come around here and compare the likeness of bar/club owners to those of CEOs and such.

If I had ten friends that did exactly what you do, and hell, irrelevant if they do it worse or better than you, but they did it for NO CHARGE; not a reduced price, but NO CHARGE, and went to every one of your customers and offered this service for NO CHARGE you would feel the same as these people on here feel.

IME, we're talking about musicians that are too timid to ask for money. I've been in the bands that played the local scene just to play. At the time, I was in high school so it didn't matter if I got paid or not. When I go back to the US I hope to get a gig in some kind of band, and I will DEFINITELY get paid for doing it. I love to play. I don't want to do anything else but that. If I see a group of kids in a band that are too timid to charge because they just want to play, I will tell them very sternly to grow some balls and demand payment. Once again, IME, these bar owners are all about profit. If they don't have to pay then they profit more. Surely you learned that somewhere, in one of your courses in college, Mr. Outsource?

 

[IvanMike]

Lets not get this thread closed kids.........it's coming awful close.



Dave, the creepy crawl had me dying!

It brings up a good point related to this thread. If you expect to get paid, (and I do), you have to provide the proper service to the club. Like i said before, when we play we are independent contractors. We are there to bring extra customers and/or keep customers there spending money. That's what has $$ value, not the music.

I've seen bands do all the things the creepy crawl talks about. They give bands a bad name just like not paying or pay to play gives clubs a bad name. If you behave in the manner described on CC's website, you deserve not to get paid. (IMHO)

My main band gets there on time, communicates with the club re: setup, start time, etc. We communicate Re: volume, and we play really long sets with short breaks - (unless the club wants us to do otherwise). If there are requests we know we try to play them, (when appropriate), We tip the bartenders (even when we drink for free, sometimes even for water), and try to give everyone a good time. I wonder why they pay us.

 

[LowFreak]

Sometimes you have to play for "free", but when I'm doing it - it is either for myself (joy of playing) or for my buddies. I would not do it for a bar owner.. I cannot pay my rent with free beer..

In my line of gigging (freelance) you never know who you end up playing with/for, and often the strangest of gigs can give you a break in some other area. I'll rather play for free than to play too cheap - it is all about integrity.

And if the bar owner is known to be cheap on the beer, I see no reason why I shouldn't bring my own, but I don't make any fuss about it.

 

[Bass Viking]

Just keep the movie theater porn vs. video porn paradigm in mind.

Movie theater porn offered QUALITY - better story lines, better camera work, better film quality, better sound... and how did that work for them?

And don't forget the great acting too!

Higher quality is great - if the customer cares... but they don't. Can you sell beer? That is all they care about - not how talented you are, not how good you sound, not about the quality of your performance - but about how much beer you can sell.

Agreed, making the bar money is the bottom line but I think many customers, not all, do care about quality.

 

[Lazylion]

i'd feel bad being paid for a set of covers.

I've always found that it feels pretty good! I liked it last night, and I'm sure I'll like it again tonight! But, YMMV.

Also, Dave Muscato, thanks for that. I'm printing it out and showing it to my band tonight! (Not that we need it IMO...)

 

[overdrivethree]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

 

[beggar98]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

That was my old set-up when I was Charleston, SC. It was a regular Thursday night gig and we played some very non-mainstream music. The venue was cool and let us run the door (they usually didn't charge a cover) and if we brought in a decent crowd they'd comp us our drinks. It was a good relationship because there were very low expectations from both sides.

 

[fdeck]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

I think this is perfectly respectable. Anybody who thinks they can draw a crowd can rent a venue, promote a show, and sell tickets. In this case, the venue gets its money from the bar.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

Clubs will often do that with newish bands. Once you have a track record of drawing, you should be able to command a flat fee. Or a flat fee and % or the door. The door is a pain cause you have to bring someone in and have them collect, or keep count so you know the club's doorman is not ripping you off.

 

[txbasschik]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

Hubby's original Southern rock band tried that a few times. Meh. Too much trouble. It was real hard to get the money out of people. Outside punk, at least around here, I think people are just not used to the idea of paying a cover in their local watering hole. People got ticked off. It was ugly. I worked the door for a while, and people were *very* nasty.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

To the freebie crowd, just remember, why would I EVER pay you for a gig when I KNOW you will do it for free? A smart business person would never make that mistake.

PEace everyone

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!! Jackpot!!!

That all-female band I had...half rich chicks, half poor chicks. The rich girls wouldn't ask for money...it wasn't an issue for them. So...we played for free FAR too often. I was so green then!!! I didn't stand up and demand they ask for pay until too late, after I saw what it did to us and to the other local players.

If you play for free, you will always be expected to play for free. Then, one day, you find you *need* to get paid, but you *can't*!

Cherie

 

[Passinwind]

serious question...does anyone play a club where they let you keep the door, so long as you run the door and promote the show yourself? or is that a strictly "punk rock" way of doing it?

once again...works great for me.

The club I mix in will sometimes allow a band to bring in their own door person, but they generally prefer using their own, who they know will actually check IDs and who can act as a bouncer when needed (very rare in this joint). The door pays for the sound guy and the doorman off the top first, the band gets all the rest. Bands with great draws get a guarantee, but the door is almost always more than the guarantee barring terrible weather or whatever. The word on how this works has gotten out, and we get bands of a way higher tier than you'd expect for 300 seater in a fairly rural area. Hradly any of them get a guarantee close to what they'd get in Portland or Seattle, so we get a lot of them on weekdays or Sunday nights when they'd otherwise be idle.

Anyhow, my experience is that the regular doorman or woman in our place usually does better at cutting deals with the regulars, and the band actually ends up ahead of the game by using them instead of an out-of-towner who tries to collect full pop from everyone. We hear tons of stories on people get screwed on the door at other venues though, FWIW.

 

[txbasschik]

I think in LA and possibly in some other large markets including maybe Nashville and NY, the "play for free/play for peanuts" crowd might be a completely different market than the "I'm not playing this gig for less than $x" crowd such that there may be little competition between the two. It is instantly obvious as soon as a band starts playing the difference between "pros" and the "amateurs". I of course could be rationalizing since I'm a weekend warrior trying to spice my life up from my boring gov't contracting job.

(I'm speaking a bit out of my rear here) From what I've heard about the LA session scene is that it truly is a small crowd of really busy guys that do a lot of the work. Essentially you can do the work or you can't do the work. Even if your price is low or free, if you can't get the job done you won't be getting much work.

The other thing is that most of the working pros that I know in the LA area diversify. Most of them aren't solely doing local live shows. Most of them do some local live shows in between national touring acts, film/TV song placement, session work for major labels, teaching etc..

Not sure how this added to the current conversation, but ... that's what I got.

Myself, I can't really do the session/touring thing. I can only work within the framework of playing gigs and recording with my band, at the moment anyway.

Which is why I diversify by being in more than one band. One "serious" project that writes, and a couple of pickup cover bands. These are for the purpose of covering gigs where colleagues have had to cancel (we can walk out and play on the drop of a pin...we all play together often), or to keep making some money when our "serious" bands aren't working much. I also take sub work, and am getting more of that, thankfully.

Diversification *is* good business. Whether you go big or small with it, always have more than one iron in the fire.

Cherie

 

[tranceFusion]

Hubby's original Southern rock band tried that a few times. Meh. Too much trouble. It was real hard to get the money out of people. Outside punk, at least around here, I think people are just not used to the idea of paying a cover in their local watering hole. People got ticked off. It was ugly. I worked the door for a while, and people were *very* nasty.

Cherie

Hahah I think this really points to why there is so much debate in this thread. It is all regional. Around here, if you go out to a bar or club on a friday or saturday, you are paying a cover, period.

 

[txbasschik]

Hahah I think this really points to why there is so much debate in this thread. It is all regional. Around here, if you go out to a bar or club on a friday or saturday, you are paying a cover, period.

Shoot, the difference can even be apparent withint a few miles!

If you go downtown, to 6th Street or Red River, you can expect to pay a cover, more often than not. People know that, so if they don't want to pay a cover, they stick to their neighborhood bars.

These neighborhood bars more often pay either a percentage of the bar (less desirable), or a flat rate, which they will raise based on performance and how many people you bring in. Either way, most places let you pass the tip jar on top of what they pay you.

This particular venue that my husband's band played didn't want to pay them at all...a few free beers, that's it, and tips. They decided to try the cover thing...and you know what happened then.

If you want to charge a cover around here, and you're not punk and you're not downtown, you go get a hall, you know, the veteran's hall or the SPJ or some such. You advertise the show, you do all the work, and then people will pay a cover.

I'd probably starve to death in L.A. That's an entirely different working environment over there, so they tell me.

Cherie

 

[DanielleMuscato]

The club I mix in will sometimes allow a band to bring in their own door person, but they generally prefer using their own, who they know will actually check IDs and who can act as a bouncer when needed (very rare in this joint). The door pays for the sound guy and the doorman off the top first, the band gets all the rest. Bands with great draws get a guarantee, but the door is almost always more than the guarantee barring terrible weather or whatever. The word on how this works has gotten out, and we get bands of a way higher tier than you'd expect for 300 seater in a fairly rural area. Hradly any of them get a guarantee close to what they'd get in Portland or Seattle, so we get a lot of them on weekdays or Sunday nights when they'd otherwise be idle.

Anyhow, my experience is that the regular doorman or woman in our place usually does better at cutting deals with the regulars, and the band actually ends up ahead of the game by using them instead of an out-of-towner who tries to collect full pop from everyone. We hear tons of stories on people get screwed on the door at other venues though, FWIW.

Around here, a club employee must be on the door because of fire codes; you can bring your own guy if you want, but the club employee has to be right there next to him, as well.

Edited to add: If the place serves liquor, a club employee also must check IDs at the door; your guy cannot do this on behalf of the club by law.

 

[bearfoot]

Ding, ding, ding, ding!!! Jackpot!!!

That all-female band I had...half rich chicks, half poor chicks. The rich girls wouldn't ask for money...it wasn't an issue for them. So...we played for free FAR too often. I was so green then!!! I didn't stand up and demand they ask for pay until too late, after I saw what it did to us and to the other local players.

If you play for free, you will always be expected to play for free. Then, one day, you find you *need* to get paid, but you *can't*!

Cherie

Where I live, most venues simply cannot afford a full band. But I don't think a full band should play for free - unless, there is a point to it - charity or something. Free gig for a bar owner does nothing to further your band. Play for some event, then you're doing something forward that is likely to garner more positive connections.

If there aren't a lot of viable venues around you, one thing to remember, unless you're a pure Cover Band - have product to sell. Especially if you're solo, or a duo. Have that CD ready even before you start gigging. Then, say you get a nominal fee, sell a few CD's - constantly advertise your functional, non-lame website, where the music can also be sold. Hit the ground running so to speak.

 

[Passinwind]

Around here, a club employee must be on the door because of fire codes; you can bring your own guy if you want, but the club employee has to be right there next to him, as well.

Makes sense to me.

I've never seen a Fire Marshall in the venue in question, but I have no idea what the fire code says. On my side of the river in Washington we used to see one pretty frequently at one 100 seat venue that was famous for cramming up to 300 people in.

 

[overdrivethree]

when we'd run the door at our shows, the bar (not club, i guess this is an important distinction) would have a guy there to check ID. very stringent about this, and understandable. once they got through him, they got to me, and we could charge whatever we wanted. so long as the show started no earlier than 8pm and was over by 1am.

running your own door is a pain in the neck, yes. but it's also a great way to ensure that the money gets divided evenly and everyone gets paid.

played a free gig once, opening for a local guy who'd migrated to and from Nashville (another pop country clone who kept hitting the wall down there). he was in town to "raise some money" for his next venture to Tennessee. the show was an hour drive for us, we played for the allotted time (one hour), and he just shook our hands at the end of the night and said "thanks for coming." like, really? not even gas money to get back up to the city? truthfully, i don't know why we even played the show (i never could stand the guy...self-important preening star wannabe). but that one instance drove home the point that i'd prefer to be charge of the gig process as much as possible, whether low-key or bigger (100+ capacity).

 

[StreamerDavid]

Don't do free gigs unless you have a bunch of money. If you're doing a gig for free and there's an issue about not getting paid, you shouldn't be doing it.