I'll Never Play for Free Again

[von buck]

So go on the hannah montana site a complain to her.
Sure give me an IT guy who can wipe the floor with me and is willing to work my hours at my pay and my dedication he can have my job (not pooping you).

ok, he works as hard and the hours and has the dedication, but will work for a dollar an hour.
Fine, he can have your job, go some where else.
Oh wait at this company, they allready have a guy working for a dollar an hour, and the next place,then the next place etc...
Soon your a greeter at WalMart, sorry dude, that's business.
Stay in the basement

Andy

EDIT: I'm having trouble with one of my older Macs. KI was going to take it to a "professional" to fix it, but my neighbor's kid said he do it for free.

 

[Tony In Philly]

I don't see the big deal really, I don't expect to get paid for my hobby.

Stamp collecting is a hobby; music is at the very least an avocation. That's not the same thing.

Also this slam from somebody else on the over 50 crowd who should be at home with the wifey and mini-van -- if there are clubs that want to hire us and we have a lot of leeway in what we want to play and are enjoying it, then what the hell do you care? Yeah, so maybe 75% of it is tribute, we're still having a good time and the clubs feel they are getting their money's worth. Why should I be loading a PA and and rigs into a rehearsal space at 3 AM at age 55 and not get paid for it? The hell with that. Now when I was 25......

 

[scottbass]

I certainly don't feel threatened by the mothmonstermans out there who are playing for free and who are ecstatic to get a bottle of beer and a handful of peanuts as a tip.

Our main concern is making sure that when we sell ourselves to the venues they can tell the difference between us and the less serious musicians who are giving it away for free. As long as we realize that it's our responsibility to present ourselves as being in a different category from them and we maintain a reputation as professionals then we have no problems.

Nah, I'm not buying that!

If Mothmonstermans and the Mothmonstermen play for free at Bob's Country Bunker, then Bob's Country Bunker would also expect Hbarcat and the Hbarcats to play for free.

If Cold Play plays for free on Saturday Night Live, then Saturday Night Live would also expect Green Day to play for free.

Every profit-making venue that gets away with paying nothing for a band of the quality they desire becomes a profit-making venue that will no longer pay any bands of that same quality to play. You think you can somehow distinguish yourself by the quality of marketing you provide and/or the quality of music you provide? No way - they now have a growing list of bands that will market as good as you and play as good as you for free because they want "the exposure".

And yes, I agree that newer and especially younger bands that play only originals are a different case. They have no following built up yet and they don't appeal to the dancing/drinking crowd at the typical cover band venue. They have no musical clout yet, for lack of a better term.

But every time a band with a certain amount of musical clout plays for free, it diminishes the ability of other bands with the same amount of musical clout to get a paying gig.

Yes, it's a free country and any band with any amount of musical clout can give it away for free if they so desire. But as has been seen in most larger cities, the more this happens, the worse it becomes for all of us.

Not whining, just stating fact - so there!

 

[DanielleMuscato]

...Also look into cutting a demo CD. it could be a live set recording to hand out to potentials.

+100

You could even send CD's to various clubs around the area as promotional material.

Get yourself a Zoom H2 or H4. You can record all your shows. They're a couple hundred bucks, but definitely worth it. You can hook up external mics to the H4 for higher quality (or to the H2, with an adaptor and an outboard preamp). I do this for hire on occasion. You can hear some examples on my old band's website:

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No effort whatsoever. They come with a mic-stand adaptor; just set the doohickey on a stand back by the sound booth up in the air (so you don't get too much crowd noise from people talking), hit record, and play your gig. Afterward, dump to your computer with a regular USB cable and snip the recording into tracks with fade-in/fade-out using a free program like Audacity... takes 10 minutes. The Zoom has an SD card slot and records at a variety of resolutions, from several space-saving MP3 rates up to 24/96 better-than-CD quality.

I wrote an article/ad about why you should record your shows, if you want to check it out:

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Here's a link to the Zoom recorder... best $200 I ever spent. I charge more to record other people's shows, because I use nicer mics and do a lot of other stuff (see link above), but you can easily do it yourself if you have the inclination:

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Hope this helps!

 

[cassanova]

I think thats BS that the club gets free entertainment for a night because they call it "audition night." Like you said, the bar's still makin dollars, I dunno if they charge cover but I've heard before that the cover from a good night covers all operating expenses and entertainment, and the bar is pure profit. So theres definitely money floating around that the bar owners are most likely pocketing.

You can't really blame the club owner on this. You really have to put the blame on the bands. The bands do have the choice of not playing these unpaid audition nights and the more that do show up to play them the more incentive the club has to keep nights like this.

So in the long run it doesn't matter how much money the club has floating around that night, they could have $1 million that night in profit, the bottom line is the bands are agreeing to do this for free in the hopes they will get the opportunity to play there. You can't really fault the club for that.

 

[tranceFusion]

Well guess what, hobbyists like me and a few others here aren't a threat to you then. I work as an IT consultant (programmer, QA Analyst, Business Analyst) and chances are you couldn't do my job just like I can't do yours. My clients may let you do the work for free for awhile but eventually they'll be more than happy to continue to pay my rates once they see what FREE gets them. It's the same with the music industry, if a professional truly is needed, then a hobbyist will not do.

+100.

I don't in any way advocate playing for free, but I don't understand this statement that continually pops up here about how hobbyist musicians are going to take food off the table of pros.

The dive bar down the street with the same 12 regulars in every night is never going to be able to afford a pro musician. The bands that play for peanuts at that dive are never going to be getting gigs at weddings, business events, etc. where a true professional is needed.

 

[DanielleMuscato]

You can't really blame the club owner on this. You really have to put the blame on the bands. The bands do have the choice of not playing these unpaid audition nights and the more that do show up to play them the more incentive the club has to keep nights like this.

So in the long run it doesn't matter how much money the club has floating around that night, they could have $1 million that night in profit, the bottom line is the bands are agreeing to do this for free in the hopes they will get the opportunity to play there. You can't really fault the club for that.

I partially agree. The fact is that clubs take advantage of bands that don't know better, because these guys have stars in their eyes and are naïve. Saying that it's the musicians' fault is akin to saying that the mortgage crisis is the fault of the people stupid enough to get loans they couldn't afford. Yes, this is true, but it's also because of predatory lending, which is becoming more and more illegal, and for a good reason: to protect people from inadvertently screwing themselves out of naïveté.

Similarly, clubs take advantage of bands because no one stops them. I think it is the duty of those of us who know better than to play [covers] for free to educate people who don't understand the harm they are causing. Some people will choose to screw themselves and others anyway, and that's arguably their prerogative. Being a musician is one of the few jobs where there is no government regulation about pay (in this country), aside from classical/Broadway etc musicians going union, partially because musicians allow it on account of tax evasion, but also because people have this idea that musicians aren't supposed to get paid. That's reinforced by musicians working for free.

I think the only real solution for working musicians is to simply make yourself worth more than someone willing to play for free. Alternatively, we can take the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach, give up, just get a day job ourselves, and then play for free or cheap, too.

Realistically, for 99% of guys I know who play, it's a no-win situation in the long-term. You are always going to be competing with youngsters who have stars in their eyes, no kids & no bills, who are okay with a 3- or 5-year romanticized toe-in-the-water-dip into the life of a musician, willing to live on $6,000/year until they wise up... and you are also going to be competing with 40-something IT guys with a wife, 2.5 kids, a dog, and a mortgage, who are willing to play for free year after year in order to re-live that summer in college when they went on a 10-day circuit tour, LOL.

It's only maybe 1% of the guys/gals I know who play, who actually work at it and are able to support themselves and make a living, because they don't take crap (like playing covers for free), and they are professional about it (showing up on time, really promoting their shows, not drinking or doing drugs, and playing with real proficiency). These are the guys who own two tuxes, so they can switch off which one they wear to the gig with which one is at the dry cleaner. These guys are worth more, and DO get paid, because they make an effort to be worth more.

My 2 cents...

 

[KwinS]

Ya know, Dave, after reading a lot of your wisdom for several months, this is one I agree with you completely on. Some of the others-not so much.



Hey! I kid!

 

[DanielleMuscato]

Ya know, Dave, after reading a lot of your wisdom for several months, this is one I agree with you completely on. Some of the others-not so much.



Hey! I kid!

 

[Diogenes]

Whining? I'm not whining. If you are ok with taking food off the table from people who are working (and yes it actually is WORK), then go for it. I also don't agree with the concept of outsourcing labor from local companies to offshore places where the workers are paid virtually nothing. Same thing here. Devaluation of work done.

By the way, no one who doesn't take initiative lasts long as a pro. That subset of people is not pertinent to the conversation and bringing it up does nothing to advance your point or lack thereof.

Bottom line, go play for free if you want. I think it's unethical but that doesn't require you to agree with me. Hey, I think it is wrong to cheat on your taxes too, but would you let my opinion stop you?

First of all I never alluded to the fact that anything associated with the music biz isn't work... that's merely a fabrication on your part in an attempt to validate your argument. Thanks for playing but please try again.

Yes what you are doing is whining. If you're good at what you do then you shouldn't have to worry about people like me. If you complain about not making the money you need even though you're highly trained in a particular area... then have the sense to do something else or stop whining. Don't blame others because you're so stubborn and feel you're owed income because of your experience or supposed professionalism. If someone else is hired at a lesser pay scale than you (such as outsourcing in the IT world) then take it out on the company who is outsourcing, not the person who took the job. THAT's the point you obviously don't get. Don't take it out on fellow musicians... get angry at the industry or companies who feel you're worthless. PERIOD! As for your comments concerning ethics and cheating, keep grasping at straws.... your argument still doesn't hold water.

BTW - yes I've lost work due to outsourcing to India and China... no hard feelings because I know my foreign brothers and sisters need to eat too. I know it's these large companies who try to cut corners so that their goals to increase their profit margin by 25% is met are to blame. But you know what? Eventually these CEOs, CTOs, and CFOs who thought cutting corners was a good idea to line their own pockets with absurd wealth finally come to realize that it's in their best interest to pay for quality work from quality people in an environment where accountability matters. And if, sometime down the line, there aren't any more IT jobs for me then who cares? I go on and find work as a welder, metalsmith, woodworker, technical illustrator, research technician, freelance draftsman or a number of other jobs I've held in the past... because I don't whine nor do I blame my supposed competition for wanting to attain the same goals as I.

And yes I will keep playing for free when I feel it's necessary. I enjoy being part of the song writing process and performing on stage. I don't kid myself into thinking that my shyte is gold and know that music is like anything else that is marketable... it's a matter of supply and demand. It's my job to get a large fan base who want to see my band and I on stage, if they like our crap, and I know that when starting a new band that means playing a lot of freebies.

So again... STOP WHINING!!

 

[Diogenes]

I remember places in NYC that were always "auditioning" bands...

I have known and still know plenty of clubs that have a "Battle of the Bands" thing going that promise the winners studio time to cut a demo and a custom touring van. Guess what? The finals never seem to materialize. It's the same old game that's been played out since I started gigging in the early 80s. Do I enter these 'events'? HELL YEA! The way I see it is that we're not doing a show, the band and I get to rehearse on a stage in front of people, crank our amps and take notes on what settings work for particular venues. And if you're like me, even after more than 25 years, I'm still searching for the ideal tone so stage time helps. We treat ourselves, after our set, with drinks we brought in our cases so it's not like we're giving the club any money. And to top it off we get to see other bands and network. In some cases we get the opportunity to see some great new talent. But most of the time we get to laugh our glutes off at some really lame cover bands who are way out of their element and make the huge mistake of taking themselves too seriously. These people are NOT taking money out of the hands of serious musicians... believe me.

Sounds like a night of fun to me. But then again my belly IS full.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

...I think we professionals NEED to make the difference between a pro band and a group of hobbyists known to club owners...Once we remember that nobody owes us anything and we need to take some responsibility for what we do the situation will turnaround... Write some interesting arrangements of some favorite songs or anything that highlights the band's capabilities and interests the audience. Start a mailing list, make a damn effort. If you put on a quality show people will come back when you play.

Remember folks, QUALITY is what we as professionals have to offer. If we lose sight of that, we'll be sitting outside the clubs cursing the hobbyists for "stealing" our gigs.

Amen, Brother! 100% correct.

Like it or not, music is a business subject to economic pressures. If your act offers real value, you won't have to compete with people who play for free, DJs, karaoke or just music playing. If you help the venue make money, you can demand pay, but if you don't you'll have to slug it out in the trenches.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

...Said he was hesitant to hire us BUT what would we charge for a Friday night?...I emailed him what we would charge and havent heard a thing from him...

I wasn't there, but going just on what you posted, it seems like you passed the audition and the owner wanted to negotiate a fee for a paying gig. I suggest to call the guy to follow up. Maybe he didn't get the email or something else distracted him, or you may have to discuss the price, but you may still be able to make a deal (and maybe not, but you will never know if you don't follow up).

 

[Skarekrough]

Leave the free gigs and audition gigs for amateurs. The bar owners should get crappy quality with bands until they learn the hard way.

And this is part of the problem....

When the remorseless hacks come out and play for free and crank up and play inappropriate material at peak volume the bar owner doesn't say "wow, I should have hired the band that had experience but wanted to be paid."

They say "Screw this. I'm going to hire a DJ and start doing Karaoke and not deal with a drummer that can't control his volume, a guitar player that won't stop noodling through a 100 watt non-Master Volume head, a bass player that makes clickety-clack noises more than actual notes and a lead-singer that spends half of his time on stage asking for more reverb and monitors.

Fact of the matter is that the scenery has changed and we DO have serious competition.

Were getting lumped in with these mutants that wreck venues for live music.

Were even seeing places doing "Guitar Hero" and "Rock Band" nights and making a killing at the bar when they do!

Those of us that enjoy playing out and need to be paid to cover our expenses and make it worth our time and effort to do it are being encroached upon from every side.

I have known and still know plenty of clubs that have a "Battle of the Bands" thing going that promise the winners studio time to cut a demo and a custom touring van. Guess what? The finals never seem to materialize.

The only winner in a Battle Of The Bands is the venue. Ever.

 

[barbarbass]

So you really think this is about musical genre and age, huh? Want to know the truth?

You can't handle the truth!

My guess is that most of the people complaining about lack of pay are as I've categorized them. And I, for one, have sat through more covers of "Before You Accuse Me" and "Black Magic Woman" than I care to remember.

Yes, a jukebox gets paid -- a jukebox also has new material rotated into its playlist.

 

[Geddyfleaharris]

So again... STOP WHINING!!

There have been a few posters who used the word whining towards other posters. Aren't the people who are whining simply stating their opinions and perception of this subject which in the end is the whole point of this thread and this forum?

I don't think the word whining is a productive word. Disrespectful maybe even. It implies that everybody who is whining are a bunch of babies and the people on the other side are WAY more mature. I don't think that's the case.

 

[tranceFusion]

Were even seeing places doing "Guitar Hero" and "Rock Band" nights and making a killing at the bar when they do!

Those of us that enjoy playing out and need to be paid to cover our expenses and make it worth our time and effort to do it are being encroached upon from every side.

This is a bunch of crap dude. If there is a bar owner who has never been to a wedding or a fancy restaurant or a cruise ship or a show in a theatre or any of the multitudes of other places where professional quality musicians work, or if they can't discern the difference, well you probably aren't going to have a good business relationship with them anyway.

There is no moral obligation for the rest of the world to allow you to do work that you love, and if you don't play music because you love it, then you can fit right in with the members of every other profession. If your job market sucks, well you have to move into a new one, just like every other profession. It is part of living within a free market.

All that aside however, I don't think in this case that the threat is real. There are always going to be competing or substitutes for any product, and claiming guitar hero or playing music through a PA is taking your job away seems ridiculous. It is not like every little bar in town is going to be able to afford a live musician every night in the event that recorded media didn't exist.

 

[Geddyfleaharris]

I hope ugly fat chicks will stop giving "it" away for free so that quality whores can earn a decent living.

I mean, if the fat chicks want to stay in the basement or give it away at a bar-b-q that's fine, but they should stay out of the high-end clubs where hot gym-going stunners in miniskrts are trying to earn a living in their chosen field.

Seems reasonable. Agreed.

But really, like *all* the other guys getting paid to play, I'm too busy paying taxes on all my music income and making sure all venues definitely pay the music licensing fees to worry about it.

Yay logic !

Taxes? Ooops.

EDIT - I've never seen a juke box play too loud, alienate the crowd with cursing and tasteless jokes between songs, take very extensive breaks, arrive late, or fail to play what the paying customer really wanted to hear.

Agreed.

EDIT2 - Nickelback, Metallica, The Who, etc. all played for free or at a hefty loss quite a few times before becoming multi-millionaires. I suggest people worry more about their own professionalism than pointing the fingers at amateurs, regardless of what business you're in.

Is this an opinion or fact? Maybe when they were in their teens I guess or first day out of the basement but from the reading I have done it seems most bigger bands seemed to have gotten something from even their earliest gigs. Even if was only gas money.

And any backyard mechanic can and will fix your car, and any of us might even go to one to get a ding touched-up, but would we take our family's minivan to get the brakes fixed there? But hey, don't let rational thinking ruin a good whinefest.

Sadly I know people who would not follow this logic. Fact.

 

[Skarekrough]

This is a bunch of crap dude. If there is a bar owner who has never been to a wedding or a fancy restaurant or a cruise ship or a show in a theatre or any of the multitudes of other places where professional quality musicians work, or if they can't discern the difference, well you probably aren't going to have a good business relationship with them anyway.

There is no moral obligation for the rest of the world to allow you to do work that you love, and if you don't play music because you love it, then you can fit right in with the members of every other profession. If your job market sucks, well you have to move into a new one, just like every other profession. It is part of living within a free market.

All that aside however, I don't think in this case that the threat is real. There are always going to be competing or substitutes for any product, and claiming guitar hero or playing music through a PA is taking your job away seems ridiculous. It is not like every little bar in town is going to be able to afford a live musician every night in the event that recorded media didn't exist.

Mark Andressen proved that as long as you show up as an alternative, you're going to get a certain percentage of the user base. No matter how inferior the product is, you're a haven for others that have been burned by the other option.

When a band burns a venue for live music the bar owner has to ask what the alternative is. They don't think back to the wedding band or the cruise ship band; they think back to what quality and talent they've been able to get into the venue and how it impacted their sales. If were lucky he gets back to thinking about GOOD bands that came through and did well for him; bar bands that understood the venue and had a level of professionalism, not a Function Band whose price starts at a grand. They know the difference, I agree. But there's no way in Hell they're going to think of them in the same realm of the bands that come and play their venue. Honestly, you might as well make the same argument that the bar owner went to go see Pink Floyd and would thusly be expecting a laser show on their stage.

Like it or not we ARE competing for the same venues. We were the thing that brought folks out after work and on evenings. But the expectations for why folks come out has changed and we've been less than nimble at meeting those needs, especially when the "bands" that get a shot at it come in with a sense of entitlement that they're owed the opportunity to partake in a three-set volume-fest.

 

[Bassorama57]

Thanks to Dave Muscato's post below.

I think the more important issue would seem , How can we as musicians change our local music scene so that we get paid? I remember a time in Florida when cover bands would make a minimum of $1000 a night. This has changed Drastically to the point of $100 per man being considered the norm......Casual hobbyists have a right to play for sure, and if you do not care about getting paid, great for you. But I am afraid that it does have a huge affect and de-values musicians who rely on gigging for a living(not the easiest thing to do) and puts the emphasis on the money instead of the band which is performing.

True enough - I've been a 'hobbyist' for over 30 years - used to get paid $100 a night in 1975..and am still getting paid $100 a night. Dave's right; in general it's a 'no-win' for guys with 2.5 kids and a mortgage, and it wouldn't be a big deal except it's become the norm for clubs to hire a gaggle of '50 something guys doing Eagles covers,' at $500 a night (or less!). Ideally, for professionals, these clubs would have to pay union scale; however, sadly, that would force a lot of club owners to go the Karoke/Rock Band/Guitar Hero route. I don't know what the answer is, but it gets down to perceived value, eg, if it's free, it can't be worth very much. Do what Dave says, record your shows, and cut demo discs.