I'll Never Play for Free Again

[Diogenes]

... I could care less if you love playing and unconcerned about getting paid. By not demanding at least a nominal fee, you are taking food off the table for working musicians. If that doesn't bother you, then ok. It bothers the piss outta me though...

Stop whining... here's a novel idea, if a musician is starving then he/she as the option to either work harder at their craft or accept the responsibility to feed his/her family by making an alternate career choice.

Don't expect me to shed a tear or take blame for people who can't live their fantasy.

Surely these starving artists you refer to have more than just one thing in life they are passionate about and could pursue as a career. But not taking the initiative and attempting to blame fellow musicians for their own misfortunes is pathetic at best.

 

[JazznFunk]

Then we have different opinions about this. I DO expect to get paid so I can more fully enjoy my nonprofit but self-supporting hobby. I buy gear. I buy better gear to play with better bands in better venues as I can afford it. I buy gas. I buy more gas to drive further to better gigs as I can afford it. I buy band materials. If I'm not paid, it severely compromises how much I can enjoy my hobby.


The bars, music festivals and other venues we play make more money because we are there. We rightfully deserve to be paid part of that money.

I guess it comes down to this: my hobby is playing gigs on stage. If my hobby was only playing in basements, garages and the occasional free or el-cheapo gig, then my opinion about this would probably be different.

I would respectfully ask that those of you whose hobby is NOT playing gigs, (and thereby not earning money to expand the enjoyment of your hobby through better gear, etc.) please don't compromise our gigs by playing for-profit venues for little-to-free. And of course church and charity gigs are immune from this blanket statement.

That should be a sticky at the top of the forum b/c it sums up what I tell people all the time about playing for free in traditionally decent-paying regular gigs. I *do* make a living playing music, at least as much as I can. Since losing my day job in early December, music has been my sole source of income. Your words are even more meaningful to those of us who depend on it even more. Thank you for your concise summary of mine and many other players' feelings.

 

[Diogenes]

I "work" 60-70 hours a week in IT as to which I only get paid for 40 of it. Why? because I enjoy it.
I promote the **** out of my Hobby, I print flyers, print shirts, cds, stickers, host our own websever from my house with my own money and time. we always have the same people at our shows plus a few more each time (believe we brought 60 people to a bar last week.. not bad by my standards).

what exactly is the difference between hobby and so called "pro" anyway?
I've spend 1-3 hours each day for 15 years playing my bass and another 12 on the weekends practicing with a band of my friends I've been in since childhood.

I play 100% to anything thing it is I do, even taking a crap I give it 100% you'll find no dingle berries here.

I think the "pros" need to get there heads out of their butts (unless you support yourself 100% with playing I understand that) but if your going to complain about a hundred bucks or a few burgers you really need to get over yourselves. I don't hear you complaining about pete wentz stealing the gigs that pounding down your door to play (heh, so much for talent and commitment)

I play to have fun, I play the soundtrack to others having fun, I get requested back because my head isn't up my ass.


I meet too many band, especially metal bands who forget what music is for.

+1

 

[Michael Case]

I "work" 60-70 hours a week in IT as to which I only get paid for 40 of it. Why? because I enjoy it.
I promote the **** out of my Hobby, I print flyers, print shirts, cds, stickers, host our own websever from my house with my own money and time. we always have the same people at our shows plus a few more each time (believe we brought 60 people to a bar last week.. not bad by my standards).

what exactly is the difference between hobby and so called "pro" anyway?
I've spend 1-3 hours each day for 15 years playing my bass and another 12 on the weekends practicing with a band of my friends I've been in since childhood.

I play 100% to anything thing it is I do, even taking a crap I give it 100% you'll find no dingle berries here.

I think the "pros" need to get there heads out of their butts (unless you support yourself 100% with playing I understand that) but if your going to complain about a hundred bucks or a few burgers you really need to get over yourselves. I don't hear you complaining about pete wentz stealing the gigs that pounding down your door to play (heh, so much for talent and commitment)

I play to have fun, I play the soundtrack to others having fun, I get requested back because my head isn't up my ass.


I meet too many band, especially metal bands who forget what music is for.

Can you sight read? Can you improvise a bass line from a chord chart? I'm a professional and I can. I can play almost any style on electric or upright bass with little or no rehearsal time. I've worked hard at what I do, it's my living.

Why is my head up my butt?

 

[mothmonsterman]

Just because it's a hobby, doesn't mean you shouldn't charge similar rates to proffesionals.
I'm a professional musician, and NEED to get paid to eat!
I like working on old cars as a hobby, professional mechanics would be up in arms if I started doing work for other people for free.
I'm all for playing a friends house party etc, for free, because you can sell some cds and get more people along to your gigs.

DO NOT play gigs for free!
(Charity is different)

You will destroy the music industry for EVERYONE!!!

Last year a regular gig of mine was undercut by a new band. My drummer and I considered returning the favour and playing the gig for free, 'cos we could afford to...
We didn't because as much as we were not happy with the other band, we didn't want to get a reputation and wreck other peoples gigs...

Sorry for going on about this, but as people have said in this thread, these are tricky financial times.
I like my house, and I would like to be able to continue paying the mortgage.

the music industry died with the internet bubble, either sell out or get a better day time job, even if you get your CD out there, guess what 10 minutes later there's a torrent for it on pirate bay.
now lets complain about high school musical and Hannah Montana stealing our gigs.

 

[mothmonsterman]

Can you sight read? Can you improvise a bass line from a chord chart? I'm a professional and I can. I can play almost any style on electric or upright bass with little or no rehearsal time. I've worked hard at what I do, it's my living.

Why is my head up my butt?

1. no, I've been trying for my own benefit
2. absolutely

head up butt: you hold your self on a higher pedestal above other musicians which is wrong, I'm sire there are a million musicians out there that could wipe the floor with you despite your skill.
if you make a living at it great, good for you but you should not take it out on people who do it for the fun of it.

 

[Rattman]

I just don't "get it" . . What makes it so freakin' hard to utter the word "no" when someone, anyone tries to get a band to play for free? It would take me no more than 1 - 2 seconds of thought on an offer like that before I gave the instigator my answer: "no, impossible". An "audition" my foot... who wouldn't be able to see thru that ruse? Hand the guy a copy your latest effort in the studio on a CD, or a performance/practice on a DVD.. end of conversation.

 

[jimmyjam]

mothmonsterman, I know quite a few musos who could put a lot of IT geeks out of work...
How does that sound?
This is not about being a star, or being better etc.
This is about people trying to make an honest living, and having other people undercut them!
Hanna montana charges more than me!

 

[mothmonsterman]

mothmonsterman, I know quite a few musos who could put a lot of IT geeks out of work...
How does that sound?
This is not about being a star, or being better etc.
This is about people trying to make an honest living, and having other people undercut them!
Hanna montana charges more than me!

So go on the hannah montana site a complain to her.
Sure give me an IT guy who can wipe the floor with me and is willing to work my hours at my pay and my dedication he can have my job (not pooping you).

I understand that people make a living off playing music and more often than not we are playing different venues to begin with. But it's no reason to get cocky with us hobbyists.

My argument is not with you who make an honest living but to those who are going to bitch and moan about 50$ and a burger.
If I steal a gig from you cause I will do it for free I'm sorry but that's business.

 

[Diogenes]

Can you sight read? Can you improvise a bass line from a chord chart? I'm a professional and I can...

Well guess what, hobbyists like me and a few others here aren't a threat to you then. I work as an IT consultant (programmer, QA Analyst, Business Analyst) and chances are you couldn't do my job just like I can't do yours. My clients may let you do the work for free for awhile but eventually they'll be more than happy to continue to pay my rates once they see what FREE gets them. It's the same with the music industry, if a professional truly is needed, then a hobbyist will not do.

 

[jimmyjam]

I'm all for people hiring hanna montana over me, she's getting paid well, and if that's what you're into go for it.
I'm not "taking it out" on you.
But there is generally someone out there who will work for cheaper....
There goes your $20...
What if I offered to pay you for 80 hours work?
Interested?
Of course!
If someone offers to pay, take it!
so ask around, and if a venue normally pays $xxxxx per gig, ask for that much.
Simple, everyone will be happy!

 

[Kael]

Stop whining... here's a novel idea, if a musician is starving then he/she as the option to either work harder at their craft or accept the responsibility to feed his/her family by making an alternate career choice.

Don't expect me to shed a tear or take blame for people who can't live their fantasy.

Surely these starving artists you refer to have more than just one thing in life they are passionate about and could pursue as a career. But not taking the initiative and attempting to blame fellow musicians for their own misfortunes is pathetic at best.

Whining? I'm not whining. If you are ok with taking food off the table from people who are working (and yes it actually is WORK), then go for it. I also don't agree with the concept of outsourcing labor from local companies to offshore places where the workers are paid virtually nothing. Same thing here. Devaluation of work done.

By the way, no one who doesn't take initiative lasts long as a pro. That subset of people is not pertinent to the conversation and bringing it up does nothing to advance your point or lack thereof.

Bottom line, go play for free if you want. I think it's unethical but that doesn't require you to agree with me. Hey, I think it is wrong to cheat on your taxes too, but would you let my opinion stop you?

 

[JazznFunk]

This is about people trying to make an honest living, and having other people undercut them!

Exactly... anyone can pick up a hammer and some nails and hammer some wood together and then fancy themselves a carpenter. That doesn't mean someone should or would hire them to build a house. If you're marketing your band (and you ARE marketing yourself when you try to get a gig, like it or not) to club owners and negotiating lower rates than what they typically pay an established, professional band just to get in, you are showing ill respect toward the established bands and devaluing your own efforts. As with any 'job' you are applying for, if you shoot low on your wage negotiation (e.g. gig pay), they'll either think you're clueless about what you SHOULD be making and question your experience in your field, or you don't value yourself or your skills as much. Consequently, you may not get the job. Shoot high, negotiate, go home happy. Otherwise, don't play the gig.

 

[KeithPas]

Unless I am given a good reason to be playing for free I want to get paid. I've been taken advantage of too many times to take that stuff. All the club owner is doing is getting free entertainment. It ends up cheapening what we do.

 

[FenderP]

A lot of us here are semi-pro, meaning to me we have day jobs but do the musician thing since it can't pay all the bills. However, we don't play for free except generally for charity-related gigs. At a bare minimum we play for the door or have an introductory rate and make it clear what a usual rate for our band is. At least here in the Boston area, most places charge a cover. We work hard to promote ourselves. The bottom line for clubs is if you bring 'em in and make them money, they give you money. We're not in this to lose money. Been there, done that.

It's not easy out there. Tons of other bands just like you most likely, so you need to bring something to the table other than talent. I can't tell you how many times clubs ask us how much we draw, etc. They don't want empty dancefloors and barstools.

 

[mothmonsterman]

I'm all for people hiring hanna montana over me, she's getting paid well, and if that's what you're into go for it.
I'm not "taking it out" on you.
But there is generally someone out there who will work for cheaper....
There goes your $20...
What if I offered to pay you for 80 hours work?
Interested?
Of course!
If someone offers to pay, take it!
so ask around, and if a venue normally pays $xxxxx per gig, ask for that much.
Simple, everyone will be happy!

Tough economic times... people are losing their jobs and not going to bars as much if I can get people to come out to support their local pubs I'm both doing a public service and stimulating the economy, what unethical about that?

you want to pay me for 80 hours a week?
nah, I'm top of the food chain here and have alot of job security here. Sure if people want to pay for a corvette let them, if they want to get hammered to a '86 buick century let 'em

 

[lonote]

Unless I am given a good reason to be playing for free I want to get paid. I've been taken advantage of too many times to take that stuff. All the club owner is doing is getting free entertainment. It ends up cheapening what we do.

You'd think that would be obvious, wouldn't you? Every time I get involved in one of these threads, I'm just amazed at all the rationalizations people have for playing for free. The world is a funny place, that's all I can say.

 

[mothmonsterman]

You'd think that would be obvious, wouldn't you? Every time I get involved in one of these threads, I'm just amazed at all the rationalizations people have for playing for free. The world is a funny place, that's all I can say.

It's fun and gets me out of the house... what is more rational than that?

Sure it's not a glamorous as putting food on the table but hey, what the hell.

 

[barbarbass]

I would respectfully ask that those of you whose hobby is NOT playing gigs, (and thereby not earning money to expand the enjoyment of your hobby through better gear, etc.) please don't compromise our gigs by playing for-profit venues for little-to-free.

I wonder what kind of reaction I would get if I asked all you fifty-year-olds who are playing blues, Eagles and Santana covers, to stay home with the wifey and the minivan and not to "compromise" gigs for young bands with original material.

 

[DanielleMuscato]

hmmmm

Think the most we ever got out of a place is a few beers or 20$ for gas.
I don't see the big deal really, I don't expect to get paid for my hobby.

So you're the guy these clubowners keep telling me about. "Why should I hire you again? This guy over here will play for free beer..."

You may not see the big deal, but other bands who aren't just doing it for a hobby do.

Hobbies are for basements. IMO, if you're going to play out, you should charge the going rate, or close to it. It's work and you deserve to be paid fairly. If you don't want the money, give it to charity, but charge for your work. By not charging, you are allowing clubs to screw working bands. (I'm not going to say that you are screwing working bands—there is a difference. But, you are allowing clubs to do it—yours included!)

Now, I know, free market clearing price etc. I studied economics in school. You can of course charge whatever you please (and the market will bear). Just be aware of the externalities that go along with taking your hobby to the commercial market. Playing for free is not simply a transaction between you and the bar taking advantage of you. It has much longer-term effects, for every other band that will play there in the future, and you should at least be aware of what those effects are, even if you decide to disregard them.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I bet you wouldn't be too happy if somebody went around to your clients and offered to do pretty much what you do, but for free. Just something to think about.

As I always say, even a jukebox gets paid.™