I'll Never Play for Free Again

[lonote]

So you really think this is about musical genre and age, huh? Want to know the truth?

You can't handle the truth!

My guess is that most of the people complaining about lack of pay are as I've categorized them. And I, for one, have sat through more covers of "Before You Accuse Me" and "Black Magic Woman" than I care to remember.

Yes, a jukebox gets paid -- a jukebox also has new material rotated into its playlist.

I can certainly handle the truth; you simply choose to ignore it. I'm in my 50's, play in a blues band and we just released a CD...all originals as was the EP we released previous to that. We work as much as we want to and we pick and choose where we play. The reality is the most of the free players are naive kids who just "know" that playing their 30 minute set (as one of 6 bands doing the same thing) at the Puke Pit Lounge is going to make them stars. I am mostly trying to tell them that they are getting screwed. I also think that playing for free simply devalues live music in general. They aren't directly taking the bread from my mouth but they are participating in the grand illusion that music is free and musicians can be expected to play for free. It is an attitude that has permeated the live music industry.

So, do you play for free or are you simply a devil's advocate?

 

[RexNFX79]

My band may have missed out on some stuff because of this but we never play for free. If someone tries to rope us in to an audition night, I politely decline. If you have promo material and you're playing other places nearby that have good reputations for music that should give you some leverage to avoid trying out but some still insist on it. I think that it's a cheap way to get live music and we don't do it. I've been told by some that this is a bad policy but it's not worth it to go set up and give my free time to play for free or for tips. That's like if a guy wants me to pay him to mow my grass and I tell him the first time he has to do it for free?

 

[Diogenes]

There have been a few posters who used the word whining towards other posters. Aren't the people who are whining simply stating their opinions and perception of this subject which in the end is the whole point of this thread and this forum?

I don't think the word whining is a productive word. Disrespectful maybe even. It implies that everybody who is whining are a bunch of babies and the people on the other side are WAY more mature. I don't think that's the case.

Airing one's opinion and concern about a subject isn't whining. Blaming other people for their own misfortune is.

 

[txbasschik]

Sure. But get paid. I won't work cheap/free anymore because doing so sets precedent. If musicians continue to work cheap/for free eventually the status quo will be to make that the norm. I'd rather not see that. Sure it's fun to play, but think about the long-term consequences.
At a club gig recently, an obviously well-heeled woman approached the leader, showered us with praise, then asked how much we'd charge for a private event at a certain estate. She was visibly stunned when we gave her a price of $1000.00. She said, "What? I thought it would be maybe a couple of hundred bucks. I thought you did this for fun. Never mind." See?
Having said all that, I'll do certain charity events free, but I'm mighty particular about which ones.
Club wants to see us for free as an 'audition?' We give 'em a DVD.

AaaaaaaaaMEN!!! That is precisely what happens. I've had that same experience.

"I thought you did this for fun." Well...yes, to a certain extent. We do it because this is how we're wired, this is what we want to do with our lives. And these folks don't realize that it isn't *all* fun! They don't understand the level of dedication required, nor the dreariness of tearing down when you are dead tired. One can assume she enjoys her job, or some aspects of it. Would she work for free/practically nothing, other than for charity? Assuredly not! But she doesn't consider what we do to be *work*.

Psht. Lord bless her little pea-pickin' heart, cause I can't. :scowl:

Cherie

 

[Michael Case]

Saying that it's the musicians' fault is akin to saying that the mortgage crisis is the fault of the people stupid enough to get loans they couldn't afford. Yes, this is true, but it's also because of predatory lending, which is becoming more and more illegal, and for a good reason: to protect people from inadvertently screwing themselves out of naïveté.

I always think of that scene from "Full Metal Jacket" where the Sargent sees Private Pile's open foot looker and screams "if it weren't for numbnuts like you we'd have no theft!" I hate to say it, but I agree. We all know that there are bad people in the world they could be club owners, small time thieves, or predatory lenders. My feeling is that it is our responsibility to look out for ourselves and at the same time others by avoiding these people and not allowing them to feed of us. If more musicians demanded (and truly earned) payment to play in a venue that made a profit from a bands work, we wouldn't be in this situation. The same for predatory lenders, if people took a minute to think this bank wants to lend me $100,000 + to buy a house without verifying my income what's wrong with this picture? Some of the problems we have today may have been avoided.

 

[txbasschik]

+100.

I don't in any way advocate playing for free, but I don't understand this statement that continually pops up here about how hobbyist musicians are going to take food off the table of pros.

The dive bar down the street with the same 12 regulars in every night is never going to be able to afford a pro musician. The bands that play for peanuts at that dive are never going to be getting gigs at weddings, business events, etc. where a true professional is needed.

That little bar may not be able to afford a big, well-known pro, but they *can* afford to pay a local, working band.

When your "hobby" band plays my local bar for free, then the owner will book you more often, because you are FOR FREE. You have devalued *my* work. I can't get paid there anymore, because you'll play for free.

That's how it works, like it or not. You *do* take work from others, even though you do not mean to.

And if you think those little bars won't get you weddings or local parties, you are dead wrong.

Your time that you spend playing in that small bar is worth something. You practiced, you got tight enough to play, you hauled your gear there and back. Charge *something*! Charge the going local rate! It is not a lot of money, for a small bar, but you'll have a little extra in your pocket, and then some band like mine gets to keep getting paid, too. If you don't need the money, then at least think of your local fellows and don't devalue them. They may *need* the money!

Cherie

 

[IvanMike]

The only thing that comes from free gigs is more free gigs.

Amen brotha!

I've been playing for 23 years or so. My gear costs more than my car. I've spent thousands of hours practicing by myself and with others. I've lifted thirty thousand metric tons of gear. Now i get in my car, drive forty five minutes to your place burning my gas, lift a bunch of heavy stuff, stand up and play for four hours, and i won't get to sleep until 3 AM.

You're going to make money via the people i bring to the gig and/or the people i entertain all of whom will stay at your establishment and spend money.

You expect me to do this for free?

Tell you what, go ask your mechanic, your doctor, your grocery store, etc to sport you their services for free ok?

Sure for a good freind's party, a charity benifit, (and of course for my first drummer's mother who we owe for the rest of our lives for letting us practice in her house). For that i'll play free.

Auditions? Open mic night? Yeah right, go to your dentist and ask for one free root canal to see if you like it and tell him next time you'll see what you can pay him. See what he says. I'll say the same thing.

 

[Bassorama57]

"I thought you did this for fun."

Good point. I do consider music fun. I also had fun in Iraq (no, not kidding, it was fun). I have fun at my current job. Heck, 'fun' is an attitude. I am pretty darn sure my dentist is having fun too. Point is if you're providing a service you should be compensated or it devalues that service as perceived by the benefactor.

 

[Montsegour]

I've never played for money in my life.
How about that ? =)

 

[David Jayne]

Hoo boy. Guess I'll just pull up a chair.....

 

[yodedude2]

"My gear costs more than my car....You expect me to do this for free?"

Edited and sigg'd...later, ron

 

[Toshiro]

True enough - I've been a 'hobbyist' for over 30 years - used to get paid $100 a night in 1975..and am still getting paid $100 a night."

That's because the value of a cover band had declined in the intervening 33 years. Back in the day, bars needed bands to provide entertainment. And you were generally only competing with other bands and maybe DJs. Bar owners didn't have a lot of options .

The landscape is completely different now. You have to compete with a dizzying array of entertainment choices, including fewer and fewer people actually going to bars and clubs. Bar owners have options now.

----

FWIW, I'm firmly in the "don't play for free" camp. I don't have to feed myself playing music, so I don't feel particularly compelled to do free gigs
just to get the stage time. But if someone wants me to schlep my gear to a venue and play, then they should be paying me for doing it.

 

[Tony In Philly]

But if someone wants me to schlep my gear to a venue and play, then they should be paying me for doing it.

+1

What other occupation does this so damned readily? It took me years to realize that all I was getting was exercise.

 

[Kael]

First of all I never alluded to the fact that anything associated with the music biz isn't work... that's merely a fabrication on your part in an attempt to validate your argument. Thanks for playing but please try again.

Yes what you are doing is whining. If you're good at what you do then you shouldn't have to worry about people like me. If you complain about not making the money you need even though you're highly trained in a particular area... then have the sense to do something else or stop whining. Don't blame others because you're so stubborn and feel you're owed income because of your experience or supposed professionalism. If someone else is hired at a lesser pay scale than you (such as outsourcing in the IT world) then take it out on the company who is outsourcing, not the person who took the job. THAT's the point you obviously don't get. Don't take it out on fellow musicians... get angry at the industry or companies who feel you're worthless. PERIOD! As for your comments concerning ethics and cheating, keep grasping at straws.... your argument still doesn't hold water.

BTW - yes I've lost work due to outsourcing to India and China... no hard feelings because I know my foreign brothers and sisters need to eat too. I know it's these large companies who try to cut corners so that their goals to increase their profit margin by 25% is met are to blame. But you know what? Eventually these CEOs, CTOs, and CFOs who thought cutting corners was a good idea to line their own pockets with absurd wealth finally come to realize that it's in their best interest to pay for quality work from quality people in an environment where accountability matters. And if, sometime down the line, there aren't any more IT jobs for me then who cares? I go on and find work as a welder, metalsmith, woodworker, technical illustrator, research technician, freelance draftsman or a number of other jobs I've held in the past... because I don't whine nor do I blame my supposed competition for wanting to attain the same goals as I.

And yes I will keep playing for free when I feel it's necessary. I enjoy being part of the song writing process and performing on stage. I don't kid myself into thinking that my shyte is gold and know that music is like anything else that is marketable... it's a matter of supply and demand. It's my job to get a large fan base who want to see my band and I on stage, if they like our crap, and I know that when starting a new band that means playing a lot of freebies.

So again... STOP WHINING!!

Calm down there bud. I am not whining. I am disagreeing with you. That's the basis of a conversation. I think you are perhaps reading things into what I've wrote. Sorry, but it IS unethical to knowingly undercut another persons livelihood for just your own amusement. Not to mention, it is just stupid when doing so screws yourself over. Why would you do that? As I stated previously, I don't care if you agree with me or not. I am not trying to force anyone to do anything here or agree with a particular stance. Just trying to participate in a conversation, so let's can that hostility there.

So you've lost money to IT being outsourced (please note that that was not the example it brought up, but ok we can use than one). Sorry to hear that. That sucks. You have a valid point there that the workers overseas aren't the ones setting the rates that is devaluing the work being done in the IT field. That makes this a flawed analogy. I sorta brought this analogy up, so I'll take responsibility for that. What if the workers were actually just a bunch of guys who lived down the road (or across the globe for that matter) who were VOLUNTARILY working for crap pay? I mean, do you really think the workers who are getting pay overseas are voluntarily working for next to nothing? Yet there are musicians who are doing just that. :scowl: Color me confused. I'm not mad at musicians that are doing this, just puzzled about why they would do something that is shooting us all (them included) in the foot.

I'm really not sure why this is bothering some people. I am not telling you to quit playing. I'm just trying to encourage you to get paid. I welcome "competition". The more musicians that are playing out there (in general) the more people get exposed to live music. Perhaps I am naive, but I am holding on to the hope that that will win over more live music fans. I don't have trouble filling my schedule with paying dates either way, it just makes it a little more of a PITA when there are others out there giving away the sweat from their brow for free.

It really isn't required to play a bunch of freebies when you are starting out. I did it with a couple acts myself before I figured that out. Hey I was young and stupid. I'm telling you that I watch people start acts that make money from the word go all the time. Sure they start out lower and build from there, but they don't start at zero. Someone asking you to play for free when they are making money (barring charities) is someone asking you to bend over and hand them the lube. Why set a precedent that you'll roll over and show your belly every time someone barks?

PS: I think that perhaps the mortgage crisis analogy is more apt. I don't really blame the predatory lendors. They are in business to make money. What I am talking about here is more comparable (at least in my mind) to trying to wake up people to the silliness of accepting these rediculous loans rather than insulting them.

PPS: Seriously, lose the argument ad hominim. Rather than address the topic you seem to be focused on direct personal attacks. Not working nor beneficial to the conversation. Not mentioning this as an attack on you. Insert whichever smiley needed to convey that. Thanks to Geddyfleaharris there.

 

[Kael]

Yes, a jukebox gets paid -- a jukebox also has new material rotated into its playlist.

Off topic, so should every band. Cover, original, whatever. Present the same show year in year out and you will start seeing gigs slowly drying up. Well that or you will constantly be hunting new venues where you haven't worn out your old set list in.

 

[rockinrayduke]

Leave the free gigs and audition gigs for amateurs. The bar owners should get crappy quality with bands until they learn the hard way.

Word. You get what you pay (or don't) pay for.

 

[tapehead]

That's BS man! Completely discourteous and inconsiderate! Not even a thanks for coming? Dont bother with that club again, and if you know any other musicians, pass the word on.

I have already emailed a band thats posted on his myspace as auditioning. I let them know it was a total scam and that they are wasting their time.

 

[rakirksey]

24 hours and 6 pages ... These threads always pull out strong opinions.

In general I see the point for the "Never play a free show", BUT ... since I'm in all original band in Los Angeles, land of pay to play, bringing maybe 10 friends to shows I'll slog the free market for a bit longer. We're still working on the live show and have yet to get a CD together, so I think my experience is a bit different than some of the others that have posted.

With that in mind, I don't see how my little original band is "stealing" shows for other professional bands?

 

[aborgman]

Remember folks, QUALITY is what we as professionals have to offer.

Just keep the movie theater porn vs. video porn paradigm in mind.

Movie theater porn offered QUALITY - better story lines, better camera work, better film quality, better sound... and how did that work for them?

Higher quality is great - if the customer cares... but they don't. Can you sell beer? That is all they care about - not how talented you are, not how good you sound, not about the quality of your performance - but about how much beer you can sell.

 

[cassanova]

I partially agree. The fact is that clubs take advantage of bands that don't know better, because these guys have stars in their eyes and are naïve. Saying that it's the musicians' fault is akin to saying that the mortgage crisis is the fault of the people stupid enough to get loans they couldn't afford. Yes, this is true, but it's also because of predatory lending, which is becoming more and more illegal, and for a good reason: to protect people from inadvertently screwing themselves out of naïveté.

Similarly, clubs take advantage of bands because no one stops them. I think it is the duty of those of us who know better than to play [covers] for free to educate people who don't understand the harm they are causing. Some people will choose to screw themselves and others anyway, and that's arguably their prerogative. Being a musician is one of the few jobs where there is no government regulation about pay (in this country), aside from classical/Broadway etc musicians going union, partially because musicians allow it on account of tax evasion, but also because people have this idea that musicians aren't supposed to get paid. That's reinforced by musicians working for free.

I think the only real solution for working musicians is to simply make yourself worth more than someone willing to play for free. Alternatively, we can take the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach, give up, just get a day job ourselves, and then play for free or cheap, too.

Realistically, for 99% of guys I know who play, it's a no-win situation in the long-term. You are always going to be competing with youngsters who have stars in their eyes, no kids & no bills, who are okay with a 3- or 5-year romanticized toe-in-the-water-dip into the life of a musician, willing to live on $6,000/year until they wise up... and you are also going to be competing with 40-something IT guys with a wife, 2.5 kids, a dog, and a mortgage, who are willing to play for free year after year in order to re-live that summer in college when they went on a 10-day circuit tour, LOL.

It's only maybe 1% of the guys/gals I know who play, who actually work at it and are able to support themselves and make a living, because they don't take crap (like playing covers for free), and they are professional about it (showing up on time, really promoting their shows, not drinking or doing drugs, and playing with real proficiency). These are the guys who own two tuxes, so they can switch off which one they wear to the gig with which one is at the dry cleaner. These guys are worth more, and DO get paid, because they make an effort to be worth more.

My 2 cents...

I agree whole heartedly about needing to educate and inform the naive and less experienced musicians about playing for free and pay to play scenarios. The hardest part to that would be actually getting them to listen.

I do also agree with you that you have to make an effort to be worth more than the others out there. Aside from honing your skills, IMO/IME the best way to stand out is to make a professional portfolio with a professional quality demo cd in it to give to club owners. Good bands don't generally do things like pay for play or audition nights, the portfolio and cd speak for themselves.