I'll Never Play for Free Again

[txbasschik]

Don't be so bloody soft!

Yeah, the money is ace, but it aint about that!

I'd rather watch young lads having the time of there life than Fully grown blokes moan cos they aint got paid! to me, that says that the love for it has died for you. get a job with a wage if you want paying!

Oh, get over yourself and that "do it for love", hippie-dippie bull shik!!! That is wrong-o-keebler!!!

We must assume that skilled people who work hard to learn their craft or profession do so because they have a passion for it. My doctor doesn't work for free, though he loves being a physician. My mechanic doesn't work for free, though he is a magician when it comes to cars. My hairdresser doesn't work for free, though I would never allow anyone else to cut my hair because she is so talented and takes joy in her work.

I am a musician. I love what I do. Passionately. I could make more money in an office job, but then I'd have to be medicated in order not to twist right off and get myself killed on the news. Did it for 15 years, and I'd rather go to prison than go back to the corporate world. The biggest day job I want is lunch lady at the school cafeteria, because it fits with musician's hours. Why? Why be the lunch lady? SO I CAN PLAY MUSIC AT NIGHT!!!

You have a lot of nerve saying that people who play and get paid have lost their love for music!!! I don't ask that I get rich doing it. I don't even expect to make a living without having to work my ass off. But don't expect me to do this for free. I deserve to get paid just like the doc, the mechanic, and the hairdresser.

Cherie

 

[KrisH]

Wow, this thread has grown.

As far as playing charities for free, one could make a "living" playing only free charity gigs if he wanted to... There are certainly enough of them out there. There is no reason to play a charity gig for free unless you personally would otherwise donate your normal fee to support that charity. If you really don't want the money, and want to support the charity, at least get a receipt for the amount of your fee in the form of a donation, so you can deduct it on your taxes.

. . .

My advice to bands who don't have a big enough draw to play the bigger clubs is to promote your own shows. It's easier than it sounds. Rent out the club for the night, hire an opening band, have your own band headline, advertise the show, charge a cover, and keep the profits for yourself. Then, everybody wins.

Good words.

Once (a long time ago) we were asked to play for a charity event to be held poolside at a local motel/club. For free, "because it's for charity." We asked questions: who else is donating time and/or money? Turned out that the venue was getting paid its normal rental fee, pool fee, catering fee -- even the security and lifeguard were getting paid. Of course, the promoter was pulling fees out. But they asked us -- who could virtually guarantee the paying crowd (we'd been known to pull 600 people into a Moose Club hall) -- to donate??? We politely declined, pointing out that the trailer full of amps, instruments, PA and lights was our overhead, just as much as was the venue's building.

(A related side note: has anyone noticed that if you decide to work from home, others tend to view that time as less valuable than if you were sitting behind your desk in the office? My time worked alone at home is often more productive and a better value for my clients, away from the distractions and goofs that populate an office.)

As to promoting your own show -- that the rationale behind the "play for free" scene. The enticement is that you bring your crowd, who pays a cover, and the band gets the cover paid by coming to see them. Problem is, in my short experience with the "original band" crowd, no band knows enough songs to offer a whole evening's worth of entertainment, and usually they're lucky to have 40 minutes of material. So there tends to be 3 or 4 bands on a bill, and the take doesn't go far at all. On top of that, the venues are generally VERY small, and they could probably never fit enough people in to even consider hiring a band. They clubs often provide little promotion and rely on the bands themselves to get the word out to their circle of friends. With half the dance floor covered with equipment of bands waiting to go on -- well, the whole situation often feels very amateurish. The band who goes on stage and performs a well-rehearsed set of tunes is rare, without the long breaks between songs filled with noodling, false starts and fall-apart endings. Oh, and the venues' PA systems suck 99% of the time. And when the kids that play before you leave the stage, their crowd leaves the club.

From what I've seen, none of these venues pose competition to the well-run club that offers a professional band that can provide a full night's entertainment and upbeat atmosphere. Shoot, one local "originals" venue is sombody's HOUSE!

The purpose I see for these clubs is to provide musicians the opportunity to get their feet wet. We all know that it's a lot different playing in your basement than playing on stage in front of people. It's today's equivalent of playing at your junior high school spring dance, and for the most part, that's about the crowd they draw. Your average couple (25+) who goes out for a night's fun and dancing with friends, and will spend a decent amount of money on drinks, is NOT going to go to these places. They will go where they feel comfortable and where the music is familiar. That's probably why "classic rock" is so popular in many clubs.

Now I started doing the "originals" scene because it was the group I first got into after my hiatus. I hadn't performed before a crowd in 14 years and thought it would be good to learn some new material and slide into the whole thing gradually. Learning a dozen songs was no problem at all. The other members are a little younger than me (no more than 10 years) , but are settled professional people. I don't know that they still don't have a little stardust in their eyes, but no matter. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, I've started putting limits on how much time and effort I'm willing to put into the project.

I also have another project that is the more traditional cover bar band. It's taking more time and effort, but the reward will be performing tunes well enough to compliment the original artists, and making some money. There still seems to be a robust market for paid club gigs around here, despite the availability of "music houses" and hole-in-the-wall venues that offer the gamut of music (some good, some weird) played by free musicians.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[uglybassplayer]

Don't be so bloody soft!

Yeah, the money is ace, but it aint about that!

I'd argue that depends. I'm in two bands right now. One's a contempory praise band that plays a lot of church events and youth retreats. This band's a labor of love for me. The drummer runs a non-profit humanitarian organization and we usually donate any gig proceeds to that organization.

The other is a folk/rock band doing a mix of covers and originals. We're starting to get a halfway decent following in the area and our last couple of gigs at this one particular establishment has been drawing a good crowd. This place is making good money off these patrons who are there primarily to see us. They charge a cover at the door which is our take for the night. We keep getting called back not because we're any good, but because we're making them money... and in turn we're making some money too. Everybody wins!

- Ugly.

 

[Ed Goode]

(A related side note: has anyone noticed that if you decide to work from home, others tend to view that time as less valuable than if you were sitting behind your desk in the office? My time worked alone at home is often more productive and a better value for my clients, away from the distractions and goofs that populate an office.)

..........



The purpose I see for these clubs is to provide musicians the opportunity to get their feet wet. We all know that it's a lot different playing in your basement than playing on stage in front of people. It's today's equivalent of playing at your junior high school spring dance, and for the most part, that's about the crowd they draw. Your average couple (25+) who goes out for a night's fun and dancing with friends, and will spend a decent amount of money on drinks, is NOT going to go to these places. They will go where they feel comfortable and where the music is familiar. That's probably why "classic rock" is so popular in many clubs.

Overall a great post KrisH ... well thought out stuff from another Jersey-ite! But to the two specific points quoted ...

My wife works from home and her time is routinely disrupted by folks who errantly assume she is "always available". If she worked in another location I seriously doubt she'd be interrupted so frequently. Does working from home somehow make her less professional in their eyes? (she is a nationally recognized art doll designer and instructor) ....

I agree that classic rock is a very active entertainment choice, at least it is here at the Jersey Shore. Our clientel are the now somewhat aging "baby boomers" that have disposable income (in spite of the poor economy, these folks are well-to-do) and are willing to part with their cash for entertainment they enjoy. Classic rock tunes are what they want to hear and they stay all night spending money.

I fail to understand the rationale for providing this level of entertainment to them for free, and to the best of my knowledge that doesn't happen here (at least not in my circuit). We draw a fairly good crowd at every gig, we're repeatedly offered more work than we want and we get our price at every gig we do. Maybe this situation is different in other parts of the country? Or is it just different with all original bands? ...

 

[Skarekrough]

Don't be so bloody soft!

Yeah, the money is ace, but it aint about that!

If it were any other job in the venue they would expect to be paid.

Last I checked bartenders, waitresses, bouncers and doormen were expecting to be paid at the end of the night.

The fact that we enjoy doing what were doing shouldn't diminish the value we put on our abilities.

I'd rather watch young lads having the time of there life than Fully grown blokes moan cos they aint got paid! to me, that says that the love for it has died for you. get a job with a wage if you want paying!

...and the bar wants whatever is going to bring in the most people that will drink the most alcohol.

If the bar thought they could do better with some dude dressed in a tu-tu doing performance art with jell-o and fire for props then you know they'd do it.

For the bar it's about making money.

When they don't pay a band they make a choice to save some on the front end, and I can respect that a bar would want to do that.

However, the fact of the matter is that when the band sucks out loud and they lose money at the bar because no one shows up (the band is unmotivated to bring in a crowd) they don't sell as many drinks.

It comes down to a question of whether your band can get them up and moving and drinking to the tune of their profit margin per beverage.

Having bands in for free is a crap shoot; they could do well or they could do miserably. There's no consequences for the band if they tank and don't get people drinking.

But when a band is paid there's an obligation to get people in there, to get them moving, to get them drinking This is what makes the bar the big bucks.

 

[SMASH]

I deserve to get paid just like the doc, the mechanic, and the hairdresser.

Cherie

Then get paid. No one is stopping you. Like those who may wish to play for free, or like any doctor or mechanic or hairdresser, you can charge whatever you like.

Just please don't pretend that your hairdresser, doctor, and mechanic always charged what they charge today, now that they know their job well, or that they are putting out of business hairdressers, doctors, and mechanics that charge 2x, 5x, or 10x more.

And yes, some people do give medical advice for free, cut hair for free, or fix cars for free. Perhaps for their own families & friends, perhaps for the poor, perhaps to learn their trade. They're not taking work from anyone, and if some people come to expect free haircuts then they can take what they get and maybe walk around looking goofy or they can pay for a pro.

What's next? Guys who shave their heads are putting salons out of business? Wives are putting whores out of business? I tell someone what mode to try over an F#m and I'm putting pro music teachers out of business? If I charge for lessons, should I give my instructor a commission?

Don't the entire "Technique" and "General Instruction" forums devalue pro music teachers by giving away info for free? Isn't the "For Sale" section cutting into eBay's profits? What chance has a bass magazine got if we post pics and reviews here for free?! And yet some who similarly twist logic are freely paying to support this very site. If we can't all think clearly, we can at least enjoy some irony together?


Since rational thinking and logic won't help anyone earn much in the bar band scene, I'll also offer this :

- merch sales.

- tips.

- networking.

Some of the gigs that promised to pay me the least up-front ended up being the most lucrative once all was said and done. It just takes some hustle.

The most rewarding gig I've had started by my willingness to play a CD release gig for $40. That might as well be free, really, especially since it was supposed to be a one-off. Had I demanded $20 per hour, much less my real day job pay, to learn the tunes, rehearse, and gig, I'd have never gotten the gig and lost out on a LOT of income that eventually came from being involved in that project along with some wonderful experiences, friendship, music, and development as a player. That development and networking then lead to more paid work, maybe even at the expense of some pro that's a much better than me but is too grumpy and demanding for people to bother with. A bad attitude or lack of hustle will lose people far more income in any business than an amateur could ever hope to "take away".


What people expect to pay is their buisiness and they may or may not get what they pay for. What people ask to get paid is their buisness.

One bar in my city has had a line-up every night for 20 years, through the metal years, the grunge years, the DJ era, karaoke, Guitar Hero, etc. They have cover bands playing. Pro, top-quality, sounds-just-like-the-CD, type bands. I don't think that the bands that play there for very good pay have to worry about losing work any time soon to amateur bands arriving late wearing dirty t-shirts and playing sloppy covers and tuning through the PA between songs and willing to play for free.

 

[DanielleMuscato]

Me either... To paraphrase someone - Capitalism is the worst economic system there is, except for all the others.

That was Churchill, and he said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

 

[KrisH]

I fail to understand the rationale for providing this level of entertainment to them for free, and to the best of my knowledge that doesn't happen here (at least not in my circuit). We draw a fairly good crowd at every gig, we're repeatedly offered more work than we want and we get our price at every gig we do. Maybe this situation is different in other parts of the country? Or is it just different with all original bands? ...

Thanks! And you're fortunate, too

In my limited experience, the "originals" bands don't offer that "level of entertainment." The majority I've come across put together a dozen tunes and go looking for a gig. One band doesn't even practice; they go on stage, someone plucks a musical phrase out of thin air and they run with it for 10 or 20 minutes. There's talent in all that, but still . . .

I think being a cover band (or a "classics tribute" band ) is harder musically. How many songs do you guys know? We have about 44 right now, so we think we're almost 3/4 ready to begin looking for gigs. Just a couple more months of practice twice a week to tighten them up. And of course, they have to be played "right," because -- unlike an original song -- the crowd will know if you've goofed it up. THAT level of entertainment is worth paying for, and I would never put that level of effort and commitment into a project expecting to give it away.

Keep on smiling!

 

[Ed Goode]

I think being a cover band (or a "classics tribute" band ) is harder musically. How many songs do you guys know? We have about 44 right now, so we think we're almost 3/4 ready to begin looking for gigs. Just a couple more months of practice twice a week to tighten them up. And of course, they have to be played "right," because -- unlike an original song -- the crowd will know if you've goofed it up. THAT level of entertainment is worth paying for, and I would never put that level of effort and commitment into a project expecting to give it away.

Well, we're old and have all been playing for far too many years so our song list is pretty large. Right now we use a list of 300+ songs to develop set lists from, but we know a lot more than that. Yet somehow, someway, we always get stuck doing "Domino" ..... d*mn requests ......

 

[uglybassplayer]

Then get paid. No one is stopping you. Like those who may wish to play for free, or like any doctor or mechanic or hairdresser, you can charge whatever you like.

True. This is no different than the career choice many of us make. Some of us choose careers because of the money it can generate, some of us choose careers because it's what we truly love to do. Some of us are lucky and get both. I only "deserve" what I get paid because I negotiated a price with my employer and then deliver a product/level of service that my employer feels is worth the money they're paying me. I believe the same is true in a band... You may have what you feel your music or performance is a great product. You may choose to give it away, you may choose to sell it for whatever anyone is willing to give you for it, or you may feel you "deserve" to be fully compensated for all the work you put into it. That's fine... as long as someone's willing to pay for it. If so, great. If not, then you need to decide for yourself what's acceptable to you and what's not... and what you're going to do about it.

Smash is right... It's your problem... If you want to get paid, figure out what you have to do to get paid.

- Ugly.

 

[txbasschik]

We do get paid. When I hear someone say we should play for love alone, it is, nine times out of ten, some old hippie who wants us to play their barbeque for free. Honestly, those words most often come from the mouths of those who want something for nothing.

Nothing worthwhile is free.

Cherie

 

[uglybassplayer]

I think being a cover band (or a "classics tribute" band ) is harder musically. How many songs do you guys know? We have about 44 right now, so we think we're almost 3/4 ready to begin looking for gigs. Just a couple more months of practice twice a week to tighten them up. And of course, they have to be played "right," because -- unlike an original song -- the crowd will know if you've goofed it up. THAT level of entertainment is worth paying for, and I would never put that level of effort and commitment into a project expecting to give it away.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the one band that I'm in does a mixture of originals and classic rock & folk covers targeted toward the 40+ age group. As far as the covers are concerned, we don't try to play them "right". Part of that is because we have some unconventional instruments (cello, violin & mandolin) and we don't just choose covers that feature these instruments. Instead we try to infuse our own style into the songs so that while people know and can identify with the songs, they also get to hear them done a bit differently. It may not work with all audiences, but our fans have come to expect it from us. Some covers go over better for us than others (pulling off Jumping Jack Flash with a cello takes some imagination). More importantly, we have a good time while we're playing and that comes through on stage. While I doubt our originals would make the top 40 charts, they are lighthearted and fun with some good hooks.

- Ugly.

 

[Ed Goode]

.... Part of that is because we have some unconventional instruments (cello, violin & mandolin) and we don't just choose covers that feature these instruments. Instead we try to infuse our own style into the songs so that while people know and can identify with the songs, they also get to hear them done a bit differently.

Ugly, that sounds interesting ... I'd love to check you guys out sometime. When you get a chance shoot me a PM with your gig schedule ...

 

[KrisH]

As far as the covers are concerned, we don't try to play them "right". Part of that is because we have some unconventional instruments (cello, violin & mandolin) and we don't just choose covers that feature these instruments. Instead we try to infuse our own style into the songs so that while people know and can identify with the songs, they also get to hear them done a bit differently.

That sounds cool. And truly different than the mass of cover bands out there, which is entertaining in its own right, and a draw by itself. And I would imagine that arranging the tunes for a different orchestration could be even more difficult than copying them with traditional instruments.

I saw videos on youtube showing a Eurpoean metal band consisting of 4 cellos. THAT was interesting!

 

[Crockettnj]

Basically huge numbers of people in this world are so self absorbed, or completely socially inept, or a combination of both, that this sort fo thing doesnt surprise me.

Roughly half of our gigs are essentially free. We end up doing a lot of free partial gigs and running sound for the local school district. it never ceases to amaze me th ewide diverse spectrum of people you run into. Some giv eyou free hotdogs, others want you to PAY the cover on the very event you are donating your time for.

6.5billion people in the world... a lot of them are going to suck.

Sorry you ran into trouble.

 

[aborgman]

I deserve to get paid just like the doc, the mechanic, and the hairdresser.

You may desire to get paid. You may refuse to work without getting paid... but neither you nor the doctor/mechanic/hairdresser deserve to get paid.

 

[aborgman]

That was Churchill, and he said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Yeah, it's generally attributed to Churchill - although I've ssen a few convincing cases that he cribbed it.

 

[IvanMike]

6.5 billion people in the world... a lot of them are going to suck.

Priceless!!!!!!!

 

[uglybassplayer]

6.5billion people in the world... a lot of them are going to suck.

Luckly, a lot of them also blow so it evens out our air pressure

 

[beggar98]

Us trailer-trash chicks need some bread for our work!

Cherie

I guess that would be the reason I see the other side more clearly: I've never looked at playing music as work. It can be difficult and challenging, but the moment it becomes work I'm hanging it up. This is what I do for fun, and nothing is more fun than playing to a packed house that love what they're hearing.