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I'm so lost...

#21
Arizona Jones said:
Are you a jazzer or a rocker?

Do you know what a 1-4-5 or I-IV-V is?

"What the bloody hell is a C Major 13?"

You're about to find out! I believe it is the 6th of a scale raised to the next higher octave!
Click to expand...

Rocker. I like some jazz, but it sort of feels like forbidden territory to me right now. Even just listening to it, it feels very foreign to me. And the timing makes no sense to me whatsoever. I guess I've just gotten into my comfort zone or 4/4 or 3/4 time, but when I listen to a jazz solo it feels disorganized to me. I attribute it to my own ignorance.


Ummm...Is that root, fourth, fifth?

6th? Why does that sound familiar?

edit: Is the 6th the relative minor?
 
#22
Good, you're a rocker. I might be able to help. Jazz is foreign to me too at this point.

"Is that root, fourth, fifth?"

Yeah. Eight notes in a scale, right. Root/1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, Octave/8. So, the 6th is just the sixth degree of the scale, and a 13th is just the 6th raised another octave.

This is a good place to start. You've got to learn this stuff here. These are intervals. These are were your 1,3,5 triads and stuff come from.

Anyway, back to the 1-4-5. This is a chord progression, and one of the most basic. You've probably played it a hundred times. Think "Louie, Louie", blues, and old school rock and roll.

You know A to D to E and back again. A is the Root/1, D is the forth degree of the major scale, and E is the fifth degree.


"edit: Is the 6th the relative minor?"

Bingo! You're getting so close, dude! We'll have this wrapped up in no time!
 
#23
Right, right. That actually makes sense to me (Maybe because everyone knows "Louie Louie"). Okay, it's starting to come a little clearer. I've seen that written before I,IV,V, and others like it, but I never realized that those were chord progressions. I didn't know what they were honestly other than notes in a given scale.

Speaking of which. Whenever a chord progression is written out like that is it assumed to be of the major scale? As in (the example above) the root, fourth, and fifth of the major scale? I mean, I realize that that particular progression was in the major scale but do you assume that of all chord progressions?

Damn, did that make any sense at all? It was alot clearer in my head than putting it on paper.
 
#24
"Whenever a chord progression is written out like that is it assumed to be of the major scale?"

No, they don't use capitol letters when it is minor, I think. I'm not a expert at this stuff.

Did you get this part of my last post?

"edit: Is the 6th the relative minor?"

Bingo! You're getting so close, dude! We'll have this wrapped up in no time!
 
#25
Arizona Jones said:
"Whenever a chord progression is written out like that is it assumed to be of the major scale?"

No, they don't use capitol letters when it is minor, I think. I'm not a expert at this stuff.

Did you get this part of my last post?

"edit: Is the 6th the relative minor?"

Bingo! You're getting so close, dude! We'll have this wrapped up in no time!
Click to expand...

Ahhh....okay. I wasn't sure about that.

Okay, so what does it mean when something is diminished or augmented? Is that just adjusting a single note lower or higher by a semi-tone? This doesn't really seem to make any sense to me, because it would seem like it would throw the whole sound of the scale off.

Oh, yeah, I caught that last part sorry. I don't know about having it wrapped up in no time, but I do think that I know more than I thought I did....whew, say that five times fast!
 
#26
"Okay, so what does it mean when something is diminished or augmented?"

I'll get to this in a minute.

Alright, let's break it down. Here comes some good stuff.

Let's work in the Key of C to make it easy.

Notes in C Major - C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

Ok, here is how you play in key.

In the Key of C the C,F,G or the 1,4,5 are Major tonalities. Did you catch that I-IV-V in there?

In the Key of C the D,E,A or the 2,3,6 are Minor tonalities.

The B is diminished. Which I can explain, but get this other stuff first.

Questions?
 
#27
Okay, let me make sure I have this...

C, F, G are major tonalities, because if you play the C major scale with any of those as the root, you actually end up with a major scale (big duh on the C).

and D, E, and A are the minor tonalities because if you play the C major scale with any of those as the root you end up with a minor scale?

Is that accurate?

And I did catch the 1, 4, 5. The progression is just the major tonalities. In the words of Alice, "curiouser and curiouser".

edit: No, my reasoning seems to be off with the third. hmmmm....

Okay, taking away all my edits so as not to terribly confuse the reader. As I am somewhat confused myself.
 
#28
"because if you play the C major scale with any of those as the root, you actually end up with a major scale"

Yes, when you play the "NOTES" of the C Major scale starting on C, F, G you get Major Scales.

Now, note that C is the only Natural Major. The other two are slightly different, but still have that Major tonality. Like the G is a G7, because that is how the notes fall. Try it. Start on G and play the notes of the C Major Scale - slightly different fingering and a slightly different sound.

Same for the Minor. A is the Relative & Natural Minor. The other two are slightly different.
 
#29
Yeah, I should have included the word "notes" in there. That would have made things clearer.

Okay, so I was on the right track. The scales for the second and third weren't coming out right, I'm guessing because they weren't the natural minor. The relative minor is the only natural minor. And this is where augmented and diminished notes come in, correct? Because when I would play the notes of the C major scale with either of those two as the root I kept coming up one note off.

Okay, I need a clarification on a term here. When you say they still have the tonality of a major scale, you mean it still sounds like a major scale, even though it's not a natural major scale?
 
#30
"And this is where augmented and diminished notes come in, correct?"

No, I don't think so, and I don't want to bring Modes into the picture. Just think of them as being slightly different from the normal or Natural Major & Minor scales for now.

"When you say they still have the tonality of a major scale"

Yes, listen to them. Listen to that G7 scale! That's is the up beat happy rock & roll scale! Look at those Minor scales. They all have that flatted 3rd that give them that sad tone. Use your ears on this one. Major is happy! Minor is sad!

Quick overview of where we are!

Excluding the diminished B and the slight variations on some of the Major and Minors. You should have a basic understanding of how to play in key. If your guitar player comes in and says this is in the key of G you should know what most of your options are.

Test! What are they! You getting tired yet?
 
#31
Okay, no diminished or augmented for now.


Definitely got that on the major = happy, minor = sad, but tonality is one of those words that gets tossed around like a salad, and I just wanted to make sure it wasn't some esoteric musical term I wasn't familiar with.

Okay, keys. Yes, I understand what my options are in the key of G or whatever.

As for the test, G major or minor?


Yes, I'm getting tired, and considering I have to be up in about five hours I should probably get some sleep.

Thank you SO much for this though. I think just being able to talk through it is helping much more than reading from a book would. There's a huge difference in written words and being able to bounce ideas back and forth and ask questions.

We'll continue this tomorrow!
 
#33
You're over-complicating this.

Forget about playing scales from different roots for the time being. Have you played around with constructing triads (the most basic chord) from the major scale?

Basic triads are formed by taking a root note, which for our purposes can be any note from the major scale, going up two notes on the scale to get the third, then going up another two notes to get the fifth.

In C major, the triads you get are:

C, E, G
D, F, A
E, G, B
F, A, C
G, B, D
A, C, E
B, D, F

All of those triads have a root, a third and a fifth. The root is the starting point, the third is the third note in the scale, starting from the root (eg. C, D, E = 1, 2, 3; D, E, F = 1, 2, 3) and the fifth is the fifth note counting from the root (eg. C, D, E, F, G = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; D, E, F, G, A = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

Not all thirds and fifths are equal. If you count the number of half steps (frets) between C and E,for example, you'll get four. If you do the same for D and F, you'll only get three. That's the basic difference between an interval of a major third and a minor third.

Looking down the list of triads in C major, and concentrating only on the thirds, we find:

C, E = major third
D, F = minor third
E, G = minor third
F, A = major third
G, B = major third
A, C = minor third
B, D = minor third

If we were to do the same for the fifths, we find that all the fifths have a distance of seven semitones (frets) except for that of B to F which is six semitones. That's the difference between an interval of a perfect fifth and a diminished fifth.

C, G = perfect fifth
D, A = perfect fifth
E, B = perfect fifth
F, C = perfect fifth
G, D = perfect fifth
A, E = perfect fifth
B, F = diminished fifth

If we apply these intervals to the triads we made from the major scale, we find we have three different types of triad. One is made from a major third and a perfect fifth, one from a minor third and a perfect fifth, and one from a minor third and a diminished fifth. We call these major, minor and diminished triads:

I: C, E, G = major triad
ii: D, F, A = minor triad
iii: E, G, B = minor triad
IV: F, A, C = major triad
V: G, B, D = major triad
vi: A, C, E = minor triad
vii: B, D, F = diminished triad

The roman numerals are a convention for naming the chords that doesn't depend on key.

Usually, you'll see chords named like this:

I: C, E, G = C
ii: D, F, A = Dm
iii: E, G, B = Em
IV: F, A, C = F
V: G, B, D = G
vi: A, C, E = Am
vii: B, D, F = Bdim or Bo
 
#34
Great post dlloyd!
I was going to write something about triads and intervals but yours was perfect.
Anywho, if you learn and understand intervals and triads, you can move on to keys, which relate to the Circle of Fifths you mentioned earlier.
The Circle of fifths shows all of the keys in a circle in relation to how many sharps or flats are in the said key. And below the major keys, it shows the relative minor keys, which have the same number of sharps or flats, but the scale begins a minor third (3 frets) lower.
I'm sure you can find some great literature online about keys, so I would suggest doing that.
The best thing to do while trying to learn all of this theory is to actually try and learn to read music. Because beleive it or not, learning all of this is really simple on sheet music, but very confusing for some on tab. Plus, tab never displays keys, which are a very important thing to know if you are writing.
Feel free to ask specifics if you can't figure something out. If I don't know it off the top of my head I can whip out my music theory book.
 
#35
Arizona Jones said:
"We'll continue this tomorrow!"

Ok, I'll be here. You're real close!

Check out the attached photo.

Key of C - Available chords at the bottom.

Later!

Had to make a few edits to my earlier posts regarding the G - it's a G7 and not Gmaj7!
Click to expand...

Hmmm...I must still be confused about keys. Looking at that pic I can see how all of those chords can be made from the C major scale. I understand that much. Maybe I'm confused as to the actual definition of a key. Let's say a song is in the key of C, then does that mean that the chord progression must use chords from within the C major scale?

And looking at it from a bass perspective, how much does the key of the song matter versus what specific chord you're playing under at any given moment?

What I mean is this....shouldn't I be paying attention to the chords that the guitarist is playing rather than worrying about all the different chords that can come from the key of C? Or should it be thought of more...globally (best word I could come up with)?
 
#36
dlloyd said:
You're over-complicating this...
Click to expand...


Who's over-complicating this??? J/k, it was alot to take in though!


Okay, I understood most of that. I understand what an interval is, though I think my understanding what less technical than what it should have been. Okay, let me see if I've got this straight....

The major or minor intervals are defined by the number of half-tones (semi-tones, half-steps), between a note and it's third, while playing the notes of the scale of whichever key you happen to be in. Is this correct?

For instance, still in the key of C.... the ii is a minor third because, while playing the notes of the C major scale, it's third has a minor interval (three half-tones away). Correct, or no?

Okay, and the fifths are all perfect (is this true of any scale or just C major), with the exception of the seventh, whose fifth has an interval of six half-tones and is therefore diminished. Correct?

Okay, so I understand the triad, and I think I understand where the diminished fifth.

Did I miss anything?


thanks for great post, BTW!
 
#37
Ye_olde_dragon said:
Hmmm...I must still be confused about keys. Looking at that pic I can see how all of those chords can be made from the C major scale. I understand that much. Maybe I'm confused as to the actual definition of a key. Let's say a song is in the key of C, then does that mean that the chord progression must use chords from within the C major scale?
Click to expand...

Often, but not always. It may stray away from the key, but it will return to it.

The key is really the tonality where the piece of music or section of music rests. Usually a piece will resolve to the tonic (I) chord at the end of the piece.

And looking at it from a bass perspective, how much does the key of the song matter versus what specific chord you're playing under at any given moment?
Click to expand...

It's crucial. You may be concentrating on the chord tones, but playing passing tones between the strong beats. It will sound odd if you play a flattened 6th on the ii chord or a natural 2nd on the iii.

What I mean is this....shouldn't I be paying attention to the chords that the guitarist is playing rather than worrying about all the different chords that can come from the key of C? Or should it be thought of more...globally (best word I could come up with)?
Click to expand...

Yep, you should be thinking of both things at the same time.

Concentrate on the chord tones, but be aware of what non-chord passing tones are available to you. While there's a justifiable objection in thinking of each chord in a progression equating to a mode, practicing the modes with their arpeggios is a good way of internalising which notes you can use.
 
#38
purduebass said:
Great post dlloyd!
I was going to write something about triads and intervals but yours was perfect.
Anywho, if you learn and understand intervals and triads, you can move on to keys, which relate to the Circle of Fifths you mentioned earlier.
The Circle of fifths shows all of the keys in a circle in relation to how many sharps or flats are in the said key. And below the major keys, it shows the relative minor keys, which have the same number of sharps or flats, but the scale begins a minor third (3 frets) lower.
I'm sure you can find some great literature online about keys, so I would suggest doing that.
The best thing to do while trying to learn all of this theory is to actually try and learn to read music. Because beleive it or not, learning all of this is really simple on sheet music, but very confusing for some on tab. Plus, tab never displays keys, which are a very important thing to know if you are writing.
Feel free to ask specifics if you can't figure something out. If I don't know it off the top of my head I can whip out my music theory book.
Click to expand...

I'm working on reading music now with a Mel Bay book called Note Reading Studies for Bass. It seems okay, but it's woefully lacking in any sort of musical theory. It's literally only about how to read music. But I definitely see your point, about things translating better on a staff than in tab.

thanks for the tips!
 
#39
I got my first taste of theory from lessons. The I took some theory in college, but being it seems so foriegn to the music I played in bands I didn't learn much. Lucky for me there was a Jazz oriented school in town at the time and that is where I learned most of my theory. That helped because I could relate it to the music I was playing and wanted to play. I have since studied a lot of Jazz improv which usually involves using theory to analyse songs and solos. I have a few theory books and grab one now and then to get a new idea to work on.

So a local college is an option to get the basics, but remember they are teaching traditional harmony and geared toward people wanting to perform/write classical music. Check out MusicDojo as some else has recommend. I have take some classes there and like the place, but I have not taken their theory classes. I would imagine they have a modern focus. Books there are tons. The books I started with aren't in print anymore so I can't recommend thoses. The MI series of books has a Theory book that would be a good start. Find a local bass teacher who can teach theory and relate it to bass. I just say take your time and relate the theory to your playing.
 
#40
Ye_olde_dragon said:
Who's over-complicating this??? J/k, it was alot to take in though!


Okay, I understood most of that. I understand what an interval is, though I think my understanding what less technical than what it should have been. Okay, let me see if I've got this straight....

The major or minor intervals are defined by the number of half-tones (semi-tones, half-steps), between a note and it's third, while playing the notes of the scale of whichever key you happen to be in. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

You've got the major third correct. It's important to remember that what makes it a "third" are the note "letters". For example, an interval of C to Bb is a minor seventh, but C to A# is not (C, D, E, F, G, A... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6... it's a sixth of some sort)

For instance, still in the key of C.... the ii is a minor third because, while playing the notes of the C major scale, it's third has a minor interval (three half-tones away). Correct, or no?
Click to expand...

Yes, the ii chord in any major key has a minor third because of the notes available to make the triad from.

Okay, and the fifths are all perfect (is this true of any scale or just C major), with the exception of the seventh, whose fifth has an interval of six half-tones and is therefore diminished. Correct?
Click to expand...

It's correct of any major scale. The minor scales get a bit more complicated.

Okay, so I understand the triad, and I think I understand where the diminished fifth.

Did I miss anything?
Click to expand...

Not really, the nomenclature will take some getting used to though.

You can take it a step further and add the sevenths...

C, E, G, B
D, F, A, C
E, G, B, D
F, A, C, E
G, B, D, F
A, C, E, G
B, D, F, A

If you count the semitones between the root and the seventh in each case, you get two different types. Those with a distance of 11 semitones and those with a distance of 10. This differentiates major and minor seventh intervals.

Adding the sevenths to the triads, you get:

I: major triad and major seventh
ii: minor triad and minor seventh
iii: minor triad and minor seventh
IV: major triad and major seventh
V: major triad and minor seventh
vi: minor triad and minor seventh
vii: diminished triad and minor seventh

The I and IV are both the same and we call that a major seventh chord. You'll usually see that as something like Cmaj7

The V is different from the other two major chords and is called a dominant seventh or just plain seventh chord. It'll look something like this: G7

The ii, iii and vi are all the same and we call them a minor seventh chord. It looks something like this: Dm7

The vii is a special case. We usually call it either a half-diminished chord or a minor seventh, flattened fifth chord. It'll look something like this: Bø7 or Bm7b5
 

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