I'm so lost...

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Often, but not always. It may stray away from the key, but it will return to it.

The key is really the tonality where the piece of music or section of music rests. Usually a piece will resolve to the tonic (I) chord at the end of the piece.



It's crucial. You may be concentrating on the chord tones, but playing passing tones between the strong beats. It will sound odd if you play a flattened 6th on the ii chord or a natural 2nd on the iii.



Yep, you should be thinking of both things at the same time.

Concentrate on the chord tones, but be aware of what non-chord passing tones are available to you. While there's a justifiable objection in thinking of each chord in a progression equating to a mode, practicing the modes with their arpeggios is a good way of internalising which notes you can use.

Just tell me this....does this ever get easier????

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

You've got the major third correct. It's important to remember that what makes it a "third" are the note "letters". For example, an interval of C to Bb is a minor seventh, but C to A# is not (C, D, E, F, G, A... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6... it's a sixth of some sort)



Yes, the ii chord in any major key has a minor third because of the notes available to make the triad from.



It's correct of any major scale. The minor scales get a bit more complicated.



Not really, the nomenclature will take some getting used to though.

You can take it a step further and add the sevenths...

C, E, G, B
D, F, A, C
E, G, B, D
F, A, C, E
G, B, D, F
A, C, E, G
B, D, F, A

If you count the semitones between the root and the seventh in each case, you get two different types. Those with a distance of 11 semitones and those with a distance of 10. This differentiates major and minor seventh intervals.

Adding the sevenths to the triads, you get:

I: major triad and major seventh
ii: minor triad and minor seventh
iii: minor triad and minor seventh
IV: major triad and major seventh
V: major triad and minor seventh
vi: minor triad and minor seventh
vii: diminished triad and minor seventh

The I and IV are both the same and we call that a major seventh chord. You'll usually see that as something like Cmaj7

The V is different from the other two major chords and is called a dominant seventh or just plain seventh chord. It'll look something like this: G7

The ii, iii and vi are all the same and we call them a minor seventh chord. It looks something like this: Dm7

The vii is a special case. We usually call it either a half-diminished chord or a minor seventh, flattened fifth chord. It'll look something like this: Bø7 or Bm7b5

Okay, now I'm really confused re: the thirds. I thought what made it a third what the interval between the two notes when played on a given scale....Like D, F. F would be the third of D because with D as the root, playing the C major, F is the third note. Is this not correct? And how does the way that you write a note make a difference (A# vs. Bb)?


I am a little bit clearer on the 7 chords though now. I had not idea what was meanth by Cmaj7. I've been practicing the arpeggios using the major and minor triads and with the seventh, I just didn't know what the seventh was called.

What does it mean when you say flattened fifth?

 

[dlloyd]

Just tell me this....does this ever get easier????

Yes.

I'd stick with what you've got so far, and practice playing one octave scales starting from each degree of the major scale, and their seventh chord arpeggios, saying the names of the chords as you're playing them.

Start off in C major, then try to apply it to other keys. You'll find it gets easier as your fingers learn the patterns.

 

[purduebass]

vii: diminished triad and minor seventh

The vii is a special case. We usually call it either a half-diminished chord or a minor seventh, flattened fifth chord. It'll look something like this: Bø7 or Bm7b5

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a dim triad with a minor seventh be a diminished 7th?
A Half-dim 7 would be a dim triad with a major seventh no?

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

I got my first taste of theory from lessons. The I took some theory in college, but being it seems so foriegn to the music I played in bands I didn't learn much. Lucky for me there was a Jazz oriented school in town at the time and that is where I learned most of my theory. That helped because I could relate it to the music I was playing and wanted to play. I have since studied a lot of Jazz improv which usually involves using theory to analyse songs and solos. I have a few theory books and grab one now and then to get a new idea to work on.

So a local college is an option to get the basics, but remember they are teaching traditional harmony and geared toward people wanting to perform/write classical music. Check out MusicDojo as some else has recommend. I have take some classes there and like the place, but I have not taken their theory classes. I would imagine they have a modern focus. Books there are tons. The books I started with aren't in print anymore so I can't recommend thoses. The MI series of books has a Theory book that would be a good start. Find a local bass teacher who can teach theory and relate it to bass. I just say take your time and relate the theory to your playing.

Thanks for the tips, I appreciate it! Yeah, I'm seriously considering taking a couple of classes at MusicDojo, that seems really cool. And cheap!

 

[purduebass]

And how does the way that you write a note make a difference (A# vs. Bb)?

How you write the notes pertains to the key. This would be easy to understand if you saw it on sheet music. For instance, Bb is the only flatted note in the key of F. So if you are writing the F major scale, you always write one note per line or space of the staff. Therefore the scale would be:
F G A Bb C D E F

not F G A A# C D E F

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

How you write the notes pertains to the key. This would be easy to understand if you saw it on sheet music. For instance, Bb is the only flatted note in the key of F. So if you are writing the F major scale, you always write one note per line or space of the staff. Therefore the scale would be:
F G A Bb C D E F

not F G A A# C D E F

Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks!

Now, I need a few months to digest all this.....

 

[purduebass]

Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks!

Now, I need a few months to digest all this.....

Haha, I hear ya. I'm just finishing my first music theory class (Final exam tomorrow ) and it took me a couple weeks to catch on. I would really suggest going to your local community college and taking music theory there. Taking the class opened my musical knowledge wide open. I'm taking Music Theory 2 next semester and that deals mainly with composition...so that should be really rough....

 

[dlloyd]

Okay, now I'm really confused re: the thirds. I thought what made it a third what the interval between the two notes when played on a given scale....Like D, F. F would be the third of D because with D as the root, playing the C major, F is the third note. Is this not correct?

Yes, that's correct.

And how does the way that you write a note make a difference (A# vs. Bb)?

The "quantity" of an interval is determined by the note letters. If we were starting from C, we'd get:

C to C = prime
C to D = second
C to E = third
C to F = fourth
C to G = fifth
C to A = sixth
C to B = seventh
C to C' = octave (the ' indicates it's an octave above)
C to D' = ninth
C to E' = tenth
C to F' = eleventh
C to G' = twelfth
C to A' = thirteenth
etc.

It doesn't matter at that point whether the C or the higher note is a natural, flat or sharp, the interval "quantity" stays the same.

So C to B, Cb to B#, C# to Bb are all sevenths of some sort.

Once you've got the "quantity" down, you can determine the "quality", which is where you start using the distance in semitones.

Intervals are named relative to the major scale.

C to C = perfect prime (or unison): 0 semitones
C to D = major second: two semitones
C to E = major third: four semitones
C to F = perfect fourth: five semitones
C to G = perfect fifth: seven semitones
C to A = major sixth: nine semitones
C to B = major seventh: eleven semitones
C to C' = perfect octave: twelve semitones

If a major interval is flattened by bringing it down a semitone, it becomes minor.

If a perfect or major interval is sharpened by taking it up a semitone, it becomes augmented.

If a perfect or minor interval is flattened by taking it down a semitone, it becomes diminished.

So while you'll find an augmented fourth is really the same distance in semitones as a diminished fifth, we give them different names because of the notes used. This might seem stupid right now, but it becomes important later.

I am a little bit clearer on the 7 chords though now. I had not idea what was meanth by Cmaj7. I've been practicing the arpeggios using the major and minor triads and with the seventh, I just didn't know what the seventh was called.

What does it mean when you say flattened fifth?

That's a way of indicating we have a diminished fifth in there. You'll see the half diminshed chord more commonly notated as m7b5 than the circle with a line through it.

 

[ryco]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a dim triad with a minor seventh be a diminished 7th?A Half-dim 7 would be a dim triad with a major seventh no?

A dim triad with a m7 = half-dim

For dlloyd: C to A# = aug 6

 

[dlloyd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a dim triad with a minor seventh be a diminished 7th?
A Half-dim 7 would be a dim triad with a major seventh no?

No. A diminished seventh chord is a diminished triad with a diminished seventh. An example would be B, D, F, Ab

 

[dlloyd]

For dlloyd: C to A# = aug 6

Yep, I didn't explicitly name it to avoid muddying the waters.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Haha, I hear ya. I'm just finishing my first music theory class (Final exam tomorrow ) and it took me a couple weeks to catch on. I would really suggest going to your local community college and taking music theory there. Taking the class opened my musical knowledge wide open. I'm taking Music Theory 2 next semester and that deals mainly with composition...so that should be really rough....

I would but I'm already taking classes right now and I don't have the money to add any more to my schedule (not to mention the time), that's why musicdojo appealed to me so much. Cheap and work at your own pace!

Hey, good luck on those exams!

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Dlloyd: Give me a bit to digest all that, and I'll get back on it. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions.

 

[BigDawg]

This is my first time on this site and this thread kicks ass.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Yes, that's correct.
The "quantity" of an interval is determined by the note letters. If we were starting from C, we'd get:

C to C = prime
C to D = second
C to E = third
C to F = fourth
C to G = fifth
C to A = sixth
C to B = seventh
C to C' = octave (the ' indicates it's an octave above)
C to D' = ninth
C to E' = tenth
C to F' = eleventh
C to G' = twelfth
C to A' = thirteenth
etc.

It doesn't matter at that point whether the C or the higher note is a natural, flat or sharp, the interval "quantity" stays the same.

So C to B, Cb to B#, C# to Bb are all sevenths of some sort.

Once you've got the "quantity" down, you can determine the "quality", which is where you start using the distance in semitones.

Okay, this part I get no problem.

Intervals are named relative to the major scale.

C to C = perfect prime (or unison): 0 semitones
C to D = major second: two semitones
C to E = major third: four semitones
C to F = perfect fourth: five semitones
C to G = perfect fifth: seven semitones
C to A = major sixth: nine semitones
C to B = major seventh: eleven semitones
C to C' = perfect octave: twelve semitones

If a major interval is flattened by bringing it down a semitone, it becomes minor.

If a perfect or major interval is sharpened by taking it up a semitone, it becomes augmented.

If a perfect or minor interval is flattened by taking it down a semitone, it becomes diminished.

So while you'll find an augmented fourth is really the same distance in semitones as a diminished fifth, we give them different names because of the notes used. This might seem stupid right now, but it becomes important later.

Okay, here's where I'm haing trouble, and maybe it's just a question of terminology, I'm not sure. Okay, if a major interval is flattened one semitone it becomes a minor interval. Then if that interval is flattened again it becomes diminished, is this correct?

And what exactly does perfect mean in this context. I see the perfect fourth and fifth, but I don't know what a perfect interval is.

Or wait...did we cover this already? I'll have to go back and reread some of this thread, it's alot to take in at once.

That's a way of indicating we have a diminished fifth in there. You'll see the half diminshed chord more commonly notated as m7b5 than the circle with a line through it.

Ah, so that's what that means. I'd seens chords written like that before but wasn't sure what the b indicated.


By the by, I'm running on very little sleep so please ignore any grammatical or typing errors in my posts. I've already seen several.

 

[dlloyd]

Okay, here's where I'm haing trouble, and maybe it's just a question of terminology, I'm not sure. Okay, if a major interval is flattened one semitone it becomes a minor interval. Then if that interval is flattened again it becomes diminished, is this correct?

That's correct.

And what exactly does perfect mean in this context. I see the perfect fourth and fifth, but I don't know what a perfect interval is.

You've got some old dead Greeks to blame for that. It's all to do with the harmonic series... the first harmonic is the fundamental, the second is the octave, the third is a perfect fifth above the octave, the fourth is a perfect fourth above that...

I really wouldn't worry about the etymology of it right now. For our purposes it's an interval that is neutral, having neither major or minor properties.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

That's correct.



You've got some old dead Greeks to blame for that. It's all to do with the harmonic series... the first harmonic is the fundamental, the second is the octave, the third is a perfect fifth above the octave, the fourth is a perfect fourth above that...

I really wouldn't worry about the etymology of it right now. For our purposes it's an interval that is neutral, having neither major or minor properties.

Okay, I'm going to leave the perfects alone for awhile. I have enough on my plate to try and remember. I'll be back to ask more questions later, I'm sure.


BTW, to all who've helped in this thread, many thanks! Particular credit to dlloyd and Arizona Jones. Thanks a ton, guys!

 

[Arizona Jones]

Dragon,

Do you have fast enough Internet to do Youtube?

If so, check this out. This is were we left off last night.

I'm playing 1-3-5 Triads in the C Major Scale.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MwL2wJrZhLE

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Dragon,

Do you have fast enough Internet to do Youtube?

If so, check this out. This is were we left off last night.

I'm playing 1-3-5 Triads in the C Major Scale.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MwL2wJrZhLE

I'm getting some trouble with the sound being out of sync, but you're just running 1-3-5 triads through all the different modes right?