I'm so lost...

[Arizona Jones]

The Circle of Fifths is a tool that maps out the keys, and its basic function is pretty simple to get a handle on.

I'll make a video of it applied to the neck of the bass tomorrow.

C is all natural notes, right? C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

What is the fifth note of the C scale? G, right?

Play the G Major scale - G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G

We added one sharped note!

What is the fifth note of the G scale? D, right?

Play the D Major scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

We added another sharped note!

You just keep taking the 5th from the previous scale and due to the patterns on the neck you keep adding sharps, and then it loops back around and you start adding flats. All it is trying to tell you is what sharps and flats a key contains.

Here are the keys in order -

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#

F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

The Circle of Fifths is a tool that maps out the keys, and its basic function is pretty simple to get a handle on.

I'll make a video of it applied to the neck of the bass tomorrow.

C is all natural notes, right? C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

What is the fifth note of the C scale? G, right?

Play the G Major scale - G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G

We added one sharped note!

What is the fifth note of the G scale? D, right?

Play the D Major scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D

We added another sharped note!

You just keep taking the 5th from the previous scale and due to the patterns on the neck you keep adding sharps, and then it loops back around and you start adding flats. All it is trying to tell you is what sharps and flats a key contains.

Here are the keys in order -

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#

F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb

Okay, I get that. Why is it important to know what sharps or flats a key contains?

And what are people talking about when they say they're "practicing" the circle of fifths? Just running through the scales of each consecutive fifth?

 

[Arizona Jones]

"Why is it important to know what sharps or flats a key contains?"

Well, I'm not a 100% on this yet. You don't want to get locked in to just playing finger patterns with no understanding of the notes.

"they say they're "practicing" the circle of fifths?"

They are probably practicing playing in different keys. Starting in the Key of C they play through the scales, chords, modes, and patterns all over the neck and then move on to the next key.

 

[Arizona Jones]

Check out this guy ripping it up in E Minor Pentatonic -

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

"Why is it important to know what sharps or flats a key contains?"

Well, I'm not a 100% on this yet. You don't want to get locked in to just playing finger patterns with no understanding of the notes.

Right, this is where I'm at now. Well not, after this thread, now I can analyze the scale and triads built from it, etc. but it's still only the patterns that are really familiar to me. I have to develop some way of relating those patterns to the actual notes that are being played.

"they say they're "practicing" the circle of fifths?"

They are probably practicing playing in different keys. Starting in the Key of C they play through the scales, chords, modes, and patterns all over the neck and then move on to the next key.

Ah, okay. Man, I need to sit down and develop a set practice routine. I'm sort of all over the place right now, trying to devote a little time to several different areas. The good news is that I actual have quite a bit of time on my hands so I get to play quite a bit.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Check out this guy ripping it up in E Minor Pentatonic -

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZvPyejILDI

Dude, that was badass. I love those bends he was doing. I can add some vibrato to a note, but I don't have the finger strength to get those. i love to watch a good fingerstyle player.

 

[Arizona Jones]

Ok, here's the deal. I can't help you with those patterns we talked about last night that "don't conform" to the standard pattern. You know, like the second degree of the Major scale. I'm just getting into it myself.

But you should have tons of stuff to work with. You understand the triads, and should be able to shift them to any key.

Same thing with Pentatonics. Take C Major, for instance. Make up a lick and play C Major Pentatonic, Move to D Minor Pentatonic, Move to E Minor Pentatonic, Move to F Major Pentatonic, Move to G Major Pentatonic, Move to A Minor Pentatonic. You're in key!

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Yup, I have enough material to keep me very busy indeed. Can't thank you enough for your help, though. I appreciate it, man.

 

[Arizona Jones]

Alright, man. Get in there and start playing with some of this stuff and try to make some music!

I'm always around if you get stuck. I've got to get busy on taking the next step myself!

Nice working with you! Talk to you soon!

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Good luck with that next step!

 

[Phlintlock]

This thread kicks double ass.

Although It is 12:30 at night and I am frigging tired, I still learned alot, and will go over it with a clear head, I'm sure to learn a hell of alot.

 

[standupright]

"Why is it important to know what sharps or flats a key contains?"

Well, I'm not a 100% on this yet. You don't want to get locked in to just playing finger patterns with no understanding of the notes.

"they say they're "practicing" the circle of fifths?"

They are probably practicing playing in different keys. Starting in the Key of C they play through the scales, chords, modes, and patterns all over the neck and then move on to the next key.

Great thread guys

The reason you would want to know what sharps or flats are in each chord is so that you play the appropriate notes when in that key. For example, the key of G major will always conatin 1 sharp (F#). And it will always be F#. If you are playing a tune, and phrasing in the key of G major and play an F natural, it will sound dissonant (wrong, unless it's a passing tone).

I highly recommend looking into a college class in your area for music theory. It really will help.

Good luck!

--Paul Haley

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Great thread guys

The reason you would want to know what sharps or flats are in each chord is so that you play the appropriate notes when in that key. For example, the key of G major will always conatin 1 sharp (F#). And it will always be F#. If you are playing a tune, and phrasing in the key of G major and play an F natural, it will sound dissonant (wrong, unless it's a passing tone).

I highly recommend looking into a college class in your area for music theory. It really will help.

Good luck!

--Paul Haley

Thanks for the answer to that!

 

[steveb98]

Great thread guys

The reason you would want to know what sharps or flats are in each chord is so that you play the appropriate notes when in that key. For example, the key of G major will always conatin 1 sharp (F#). And it will always be F#. If you are playing a tune, and phrasing in the key of G major and play an F natural, it will sound dissonant (wrong, unless it's a passing tone).

Good luck!

--Paul Haley

Unless playing the Blues, din dat F is all so good.

Like everything there are exceptions to all rules.

 

[standupright]

Unless playing the Blues, din dat F is all so good.

Like everything there are exceptions to all rules.

Yes...exactly.... re: my statement about phrasing and passing tones. If you are layin down a basic blues walk and the tune is in the key of G, then when walking from the 4 (C), you could definitely hit that F nat. But that's because when you phrase from the 4, you are really taking the position of being in the key of C for that phrase, which is why F nat would be acceptable.

--Paul Haley

 

[standupright]

Yes...exactly.... re: my statement about phrasing and passing tones. If you are layin down a basic blues walk and the tune is in the key of G, then when walking from the 4 (C), you could definitely hit that F nat. But that's because when you phrase from the 4, you are really taking the position of being in the key of C for that phrase, which is why F nat would be acceptable.

--Paul Haley

I thought about this a little more and wanted to add that in addition, non chord tones cause tension and chord tones resolve. This important to think about when phrasing your music.

 

[steveb98]

Yes...exactly.... re: my statement about phrasing and passing tones. If you are layin down a basic blues walk and the tune is in the key of G, then when walking from the 4 (C), you could definitely hit that F nat. But that's because when you phrase from the 4, you are really taking the position of being in the key of C for that phrase, which is why F nat would be acceptable.

--Paul Haley

Simpler yet Blues is usually all dominant chords, so the major 7th, F# would be wrong for the chord.

 

[dlloyd]

This thread has gotten a little messy since I last saw it.

What I would normally do, before tackling the circle of fifths, is make sure a student was 100% on the major scale.

To be fair, I'd usually do that before tackling triads, but what the hey...

A major scale is, as you're undoubtedly aware, a sequence of notes played in order with a specific set of intervals. The easiest way to look at it is the w,w,h,w,w,w,h formula, where the "w"s denote a whole step (or whole tone) and the "h"s denote a half step (or semitone).

If we were to look at C major, we would start with C, go up a whole tone to D, up another whole tone to E, up a semitone to F, up a whole tone to G, up a whole tone to A, up a whole tone to B, then up another semitone to C.

C-w-D-w-E-h-F-w-G-w-A-w-B-C

If we were then to takle G major we'd follow the same formula:

G-w-A-w-B-h-C-w-D-w-E-w-F#-G

Although F# is the same note as Gb (we call that enharmonic equivalence, F# is enharmonic to Gb), we would call it F# in this specific case because we're only allowed to have one note of each letter in the scale.

While we're on the subject of major scales, I'd usually introduce the names of the different degrees of the diatonic scale.

The first degree (in C major it would be C) we call the tonic
The second degree (in C major it's D) we call the supertonic
The third degree (in C major it's E) we call the mediant
The fourth degree (in C major it's F) we call the subdominant
The fifth degree (in C major it's G) we call the dominant
The sixth degree (in C major it's A) we call the submediant
The seventh degree (in C major it's B) we call the leading note

That all probably looks a bit confusing. I wouldn't remembering most of it or worrying about where the names come from at the moment, save for the "tonic" being the tonal centre of the key. You'll probably recognise the name "dominant" from the dominant seventh chord. If you can remember these two names I=tonic, V=dominant, you're off to a good start.

What I'd usually get students to do then would be to work out the major scale starting from each possible root note, in this order:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Gb, Ab, Bb, Eb
F#, G#, A#, D#

I'd then get them to list the numbers of sharps or flats in each key, and to put the keys in order. That way they find the pattern inherent in the circle of fifths, and its usefulness, for theirselves.

Ye Olde Dragon: There's already a good couple of weeks work there for you... don't try to learn everything at once or you'll end up burning out.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

This thread has gotten a little messy since I last saw it.

A little bit.

What I would normally do, before tackling the circle of fifths, is make sure a student was 100% on the major scale.

To be fair, I'd usually do that before tackling triads, but what the hey...

A major scale is, as you're undoubtedly aware, a sequence of notes played in order with a specific set of intervals. The easiest way to look at it is the w,w,h,w,w,w,h formula, where the "w"s denote a whole step (or whole tone) and the "h"s denote a half step (or semitone).

If we were to look at C major, we would start with C, go up a whole tone to D, up another whole tone to E, up a semitone to F, up a whole tone to G, up a whole tone to A, up a whole tone to B, then up another semitone to C.

C-w-D-w-E-h-F-w-G-w-A-w-B-C

If we were then to takle G major we'd follow the same formula:

G-w-A-w-B-h-C-w-D-w-E-w-F#-G

Although F# is the same note as Gb (we call that enharmonic equivalence, F# is enharmonic to Gb), we would call it F# in this specific case because we're only allowed to have one note of each letter in the scale.

Yeah, I was pretty familiar with the major and minor scales before we started, so we're good there.

While we're on the subject of major scales, I'd usually introduce the names of the different degrees of the diatonic scale.

The first degree (in C major it would be C) we call the tonic
The second degree (in C major it's D) we call the supertonic
The third degree (in C major it's E) we call the mediant
The fourth degree (in C major it's F) we call the subdominant
The fifth degree (in C major it's G) we call the dominant
The sixth degree (in C major it's A) we call the submediant
The seventh degree (in C major it's B) we call the leading note

That all probably looks a bit confusing. I wouldn't remembering most of it or worrying about where the names come from at the moment, save for the "tonic" being the tonal centre of the key. You'll probably recognise the name "dominant" from the dominant seventh chord. If you can remember these two names I=tonic, V=dominant, you're off to a good start.

What I'd usually get students to do then would be to work out the major scale starting from each possible root note, in this order:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Gb, Ab, Bb, Eb
F#, G#, A#, D#

I'd then get them to list the numbers of sharps or flats in each key, and to put the keys in order. That way they find the pattern inherent in the circle of fifths, and its usefulness, for theirselves.

Well then that's what I'll do. My conscience is tell me to remind you that you're essentially giving me lessons for free here. You should be charging me.

I do appreciate it very much though.

Ye Olde Dragon: There's already a good couple of weeks work there for you... don't try to learn everything at once or you'll end up burning out.

Yup, I've got some work to do for sure. It's going to take me awhile to work out all the scales, but I'll post them up when I'm done.

 

[dlloyd]

Well then that's what I'll do. My conscience is tell me to remind you that you're essentially giving me lessons for free here.

Partially. Putting this stuff up here also gives others the opportunity to comment on my understanding, so it will probably help me out too. I don't think I've said anything too controversial yet.

Yup, I've got some work to do for sure. It's going to take me awhile to work out all the scales, but I'll post them up when I'm done.

I'll look forward to it.