I thought they might prove difficult.
Remember, you need to have one of each "letter" and no more than that.
G# major:
G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, F## - 8 #s
You'll usually see double sharps written as "x"
G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, Fx - 8 #s
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I'm so lost...
- Thread starter Ye_olde_dragon
- Start date
I thought they might prove difficult.
Remember, you need to have one of each "letter" and no more than that.
G# major:
G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, F## - 8 #s
You'll usually see double sharps written as "x"
G#, A#, B#, C#, D#, E#, Fx - 8 #s
Damn, I didn't even notice that I got that one wrong. Well duly noted, for future reference.
This is so crazy, I can't believe how ignorant I've been about what I've been doing. This has to be the coolest thread ever.
If you extend that table beyond reason, you get...
Ebb major: 10 bs; Bx2, Ex2, Ax2, D, G, C, F
Bbb major: 9 bs; Bx2, Ex2, A, D, G, C, F
Fb major: 8 bs; Bx2, E, A, D, G, C, F
Cb major: 7 bs; B, E, A, D, G, C, F
Gb major: 6 bs; B, E, A, D, G, C
Db major: 5 bs; B, E, A, D, G
Ab major: 4 bs; B, E, A, D
Eb major: 3 bs; B, E, A
Bb major: 2 bs; B, E
F major: 1 b; B
C major: 0#s or bs
G major: 1 #; F
D major: 2 #s; F, C
A major: 3 #s; F, C, G
E major: 4 #s; F, C, G, D
B major: 5 #s; F, C, G, D, A
F# major: 6 #s; F, C, G, D, A, E
C# major: 7 #s; F, C, G, D, A, E, B
G# major: 8 #s; Fx2, C, G, D, A, E, B
D# major: 9 #s; Fx2, Cx2, G, D, A, E, B
A# major: 10 #s; Fx2, Cx2, Gx2, D, A, E, B
After a point, it all gets a bit academic. There's no real reason to worry about keys that have 8 or more #s or bs. The most you'll normally see is 5.
But you can see the pattern of fifths in there, with the repeated F, C, G, D, A, E, B pattern and its reverse, B, E, A, D, G, C, F (fourths).
I personally don't like the term "circle of fifths", because there's not really any such thing. You have to fudge it with enharmonics to make it circular, at which point one of your fifths is actually a diminished sixth, but what the hell...
The way I was taught to remember the circle of fifths was a mnemonic device:
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
...which sounds dumb, but it works.
For the fourths, you just say it backwards
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father
Ebb major: 10 bs; Bx2, Ex2, Ax2, D, G, C, F
Bbb major: 9 bs; Bx2, Ex2, A, D, G, C, F
Fb major: 8 bs; Bx2, E, A, D, G, C, F
Cb major: 7 bs; B, E, A, D, G, C, F
Gb major: 6 bs; B, E, A, D, G, C
Db major: 5 bs; B, E, A, D, G
Ab major: 4 bs; B, E, A, D
Eb major: 3 bs; B, E, A
Bb major: 2 bs; B, E
F major: 1 b; B
C major: 0#s or bs
G major: 1 #; F
D major: 2 #s; F, C
A major: 3 #s; F, C, G
E major: 4 #s; F, C, G, D
B major: 5 #s; F, C, G, D, A
F# major: 6 #s; F, C, G, D, A, E
C# major: 7 #s; F, C, G, D, A, E, B
G# major: 8 #s; Fx2, C, G, D, A, E, B
D# major: 9 #s; Fx2, Cx2, G, D, A, E, B
A# major: 10 #s; Fx2, Cx2, Gx2, D, A, E, B
After a point, it all gets a bit academic. There's no real reason to worry about keys that have 8 or more #s or bs. The most you'll normally see is 5.
But you can see the pattern of fifths in there, with the repeated F, C, G, D, A, E, B pattern and its reverse, B, E, A, D, G, C, F (fourths).
I personally don't like the term "circle of fifths", because there's not really any such thing. You have to fudge it with enharmonics to make it circular, at which point one of your fifths is actually a diminished sixth, but what the hell...
The way I was taught to remember the circle of fifths was a mnemonic device:
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
...which sounds dumb, but it works.
For the fourths, you just say it backwards
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father
Wow. It's like web, where everything relates to everything else. It's actually very very cool. Had I know it was this interesting I would started working on this on long time ago.
Okay, so now we've got all the major scales laid out. Is it imperative to actually memorize all of these note for note, or should I just be focusing on memorizing the triads, as suggested by SteveB98?
Okay, so now we've got all the major scales laid out. Is it imperative to actually memorize all of these note for note, or should I just be focusing on memorizing the triads, as suggested by SteveB98?
I use the following two systems.
First... for the sharps memorize this bit.
FCGDAEB
Then, if the 7th note of your scale is a sharp, everything in this list up to that point is also a sharp.
Eg.
E-major:
D# is the 7th note.
Thus, there are 4 sharps and they are F, C, G and D.
If the key is F, or has a flat in it, we go to this series.
BEADGFC
The fourth note of the scale is a flat and everything in this list up to that flat is included.
Eg. Db major
The fourth of Db major is G (the next letter in the above series), thus, G is flat and everything up to G in this list is flat.
Db major - Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Triads are good too.. they will be in this series
ACEGBDFACE
Any three consecutive notes here form a triad, add sharps/flats added according to key.
First... for the sharps memorize this bit.
FCGDAEB
Then, if the 7th note of your scale is a sharp, everything in this list up to that point is also a sharp.
Eg.
E-major:
D# is the 7th note.
Thus, there are 4 sharps and they are F, C, G and D.
If the key is F, or has a flat in it, we go to this series.
BEADGFC
The fourth note of the scale is a flat and everything in this list up to that flat is included.
Eg. Db major
The fourth of Db major is G (the next letter in the above series), thus, G is flat and everything up to G in this list is flat.
Db major - Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Triads are good too.. they will be in this series
ACEGBDFACE
Any three consecutive notes here form a triad, add sharps/flats added according to key.
"This thread has gotten a little messy since I last saw it."
Says who? You? Who are you supposed to be?
Two novice bass players can't sit and have some fun talking about theory without a "bass teacher" interjecting his comments about how "messy" their discussion is?
Kudos to you, dlloyd, for being a Supporting Member, for knowing everything about theory, and for posting some very good information on the subject!
Just do me a favor a direct your snide comments at somebody else. Thanks!
Says who? You? Who are you supposed to be?
Two novice bass players can't sit and have some fun talking about theory without a "bass teacher" interjecting his comments about how "messy" their discussion is?
Kudos to you, dlloyd, for being a Supporting Member, for knowing everything about theory, and for posting some very good information on the subject!
Just do me a favor a direct your snide comments at somebody else. Thanks!
I think you missed the bit, where the dlloyd then pulled the thread to an interesting track and the two pages of interesting material after that quote.
I could be wrong, but I didn't think that was directed at us. There were four five other off topic posts after we left for the night last night. Anyway, that's the way I took it.
Anyway, this has been a great Q&A session this whole thread. I'd hate to have it die off. I'm working on memorizing triads right now, and I'm out of questions for the moment, though I don't expect that to last long.
"I could be wrong, but I didn't think that was directed at us."
We'll see. I think it's great that he's posting all this information. I'm just not sure why he always starts with a negative comment.
Anyway,
Here's a couple clips for you.
The Circle of Fifths order played on the bass.
Is this really useful? I don't know at this point. I do think it gives you a "hands on" break down of how the circle is laid out.
All I'm doing is playing Major scales in this order, stepping up by fifths -
C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C# - C has no sharps, but every other scale adds a sharp as I progress up the neck.
I pause, and then play F Major which is where the flats start.
All I'm doing is playing Major scales in this order, stepping down by fourths -
F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb,Cb - F has one flat, and every other scale adds a flat as I progress down the neck.
A real simple pattern to remember.
We'll see. I think it's great that he's posting all this information. I'm just not sure why he always starts with a negative comment.
Anyway,
Here's a couple clips for you.
The Circle of Fifths order played on the bass.
Is this really useful? I don't know at this point. I do think it gives you a "hands on" break down of how the circle is laid out.
All I'm doing is playing Major scales in this order, stepping up by fifths -
C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C# - C has no sharps, but every other scale adds a sharp as I progress up the neck.
I pause, and then play F Major which is where the flats start.
All I'm doing is playing Major scales in this order, stepping down by fourths -
F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb,Cb - F has one flat, and every other scale adds a flat as I progress down the neck.
A real simple pattern to remember.
That's awesome, man, thanks! And the sound was in sync this time. 
Damn, I wish I had an amp so I could post videos. We need to start a thread where people post themselves doing improv.
Anyway, I think it's coming together nicely. I feel like my knowledge has increased a hundredfold over the last two days. I think the only thing that's holding me back right now is my own unfamiliarity with it, which unfortunately just takes time. But I'm getting there.
Damn, I wish I had an amp so I could post videos. We need to start a thread where people post themselves doing improv.
Anyway, I think it's coming together nicely. I feel like my knowledge has increased a hundredfold over the last two days. I think the only thing that's holding me back right now is my own unfamiliarity with it, which unfortunately just takes time. But I'm getting there.
Ok, here's one more.
This is a Pentatonic jam in E Minor. Of course, you know that the relative Major is G, so keep an eye out for that F#.
The cool thing about Pentatonic is that it dodges all those funky scale degrees that we haven't figured out yet. You now, those ones with the odd fingerings?
This would also be considered a I-IV-V since I'm going from E to A to B.
Here's the scales I'm using -
E Minor Pentatonic - E, G, A, B, D
A Minor Pentatonic - A, C, D, E, G
B Minor Pentatonic - B, D, E, F#, A
I'm using Pentatonic patterns that stretch out on the neck so it looks like I'm really doing something! I play the E and A stings open when I begin those patterns.
In the video I play the patterns first, one at a time, and then tie them together and run around for a little while.
Check it out!
You've got three months to get this stuff figured out and then get yourself in a band! ;^)
This is a Pentatonic jam in E Minor. Of course, you know that the relative Major is G, so keep an eye out for that F#.
The cool thing about Pentatonic is that it dodges all those funky scale degrees that we haven't figured out yet. You now, those ones with the odd fingerings?
This would also be considered a I-IV-V since I'm going from E to A to B.
Here's the scales I'm using -
E Minor Pentatonic - E, G, A, B, D
A Minor Pentatonic - A, C, D, E, G
B Minor Pentatonic - B, D, E, F#, A
I'm using Pentatonic patterns that stretch out on the neck so it looks like I'm really doing something! I play the E and A stings open when I begin those patterns.
In the video I play the patterns first, one at a time, and then tie them together and run around for a little while.
Check it out!
You've got three months to get this stuff figured out and then get yourself in a band! ;^)
"Damn, I wish I had an amp so I could post videos."
Yeah, I wish more peolpe posted videos. It's kind of hard to get an idea of what people are talking about sometimes.
Yeah, I wish more peolpe posted videos. It's kind of hard to get an idea of what people are talking about sometimes.
Nice stuff, dude! I love the minor pentatonic scale, particularly the blues scale (I know, not technically the same thing, but close enough). That's the only scale I can literally go all over the fretboard with, I've played it so much.
Now to the topic at hand...Have we had a formal definition for key yet? I ask because you say you're playing in E minor pentatonic, but you're using three different scales, the other two of which don't derive from the E minor pentatonic. Or am I overthinking this? I'm just still muddy on the issue of what key a song is in, I guess.
Oh, and re: the band situation. I've been in numerous bands over the years. I'm not new to the bass, just new to theory. As it stands right now, in order for me to start playing with other folks, I would have to get an amp, which is looking like a distinct possibility for christmas (I have a pretty damn cool wife), and then I would have to find said other folks. I moved out of my home state a couple of years ago and just really haven't had the time to meet many people.
+1 Agree wholeheartedly, and in this day and age of high speed internet technology there's no reason not to take advantage of it.
"I'm just still muddy on the issue of what key a song is in, I guess."
Dude! I thought we had this?
Damn, I didn't know you had been it bands, and could run all over the neck! My bad. I thought that Pentatonic thing would be something new to you. You know more than you are letting on! ;^)
The Pentatonic thing is in the Key of E Minor. Period. Pentatonic scales are not keys. I start and end on E, that is one point. Look at the notes I'm playing, all in the key of E Minor. Going to the A and B aren't taking me out of the key, I'm just moving from the root to the fourth, A, and then to the fifth, B.
Check out this Wikipedia page. Go to the A Minor link. Stairway to Heaven is in A Minor! If you sat down with that song and played along you would hear them moving around using the chords they have available in the Key of A Minor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musical_keys
Go to a book store and pick of a book - say the gospel stylings of Johnny Cash. Just look at the key signature on the staff. Do you see one sharp? Yes? Then the song is in G, or possibly E Minor. Now look at the chords of the song. Maybe they start with a G chord, throw in a C and D7 chord, and somewhere down the line they move to an A- chord. That's the "KEY"! They are using the chords, Major and Minor, that the key dictates they can use. Why? Because they fit together! They sound harmonious!
Dude! I thought we had this?
Damn, I didn't know you had been it bands, and could run all over the neck! My bad. I thought that Pentatonic thing would be something new to you. You know more than you are letting on! ;^)
The Pentatonic thing is in the Key of E Minor. Period. Pentatonic scales are not keys. I start and end on E, that is one point. Look at the notes I'm playing, all in the key of E Minor. Going to the A and B aren't taking me out of the key, I'm just moving from the root to the fourth, A, and then to the fifth, B.
Check out this Wikipedia page. Go to the A Minor link. Stairway to Heaven is in A Minor! If you sat down with that song and played along you would hear them moving around using the chords they have available in the Key of A Minor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Musical_keys
Go to a book store and pick of a book - say the gospel stylings of Johnny Cash. Just look at the key signature on the staff. Do you see one sharp? Yes? Then the song is in G, or possibly E Minor. Now look at the chords of the song. Maybe they start with a G chord, throw in a C and D7 chord, and somewhere down the line they move to an A- chord. That's the "KEY"! They are using the chords, Major and Minor, that the key dictates they can use. Why? Because they fit together! They sound harmonious!
You're right. You're right. I know we've been over this before, but we've been over alot in the past two days. There's probably going to be other times that I askt he same question twice, just cause there's so bloody much to absorb!
As to my playing skill....Yeah, I've been playing for about ten years give or take, though I pretty much quit for the last couple because all my gear was stolen (hence me not having an amp right now). I can play, and decently, it's just been mostly by ear up until now. I would always pick out whatever chord the guitarist was playing and play that root and see what notes sounded right around it. Since I got back into playing, I decided I had better start learning some things.
Anyway, for now I'm going to go to bed to avoid asking anymore questions I'll regret by the next post.
I'll talk to you tomorrow!
As to my playing skill....Yeah, I've been playing for about ten years give or take, though I pretty much quit for the last couple because all my gear was stolen (hence me not having an amp right now). I can play, and decently, it's just been mostly by ear up until now. I would always pick out whatever chord the guitarist was playing and play that root and see what notes sounded right around it. Since I got back into playing, I decided I had better start learning some things.
Anyway, for now I'm going to go to bed to avoid asking anymore questions I'll regret by the next post.
I'll talk to you tomorrow!
"I would always pick out whatever chord the guitarist was playing and play that root and see what notes sounded right around it."
That is exactly how I used to operate in the last band I was in. The band was together something like four years, and I don't ever once remember talking about keys, or related subjects. It was follow the chords of the guitar player and find something that sounds good. I wish I knew then what I know now.
I'll tell you, man. When it finally clicks in your brain you are gonna be so stoked! I've just got a basic handle on it, and it is the biggest musical breakthrough I've ever had. This is huge, and you're close to getting it.
What style of music do you play anyway? What are into? I would expect that somes styles of music don't employ this type of traditional theory. If you're into playing some kind of wacked out Death Metal this may not help you! ;^)
Anyway, I'm tired. I've got something for you tomorrow that I think might clear this "mess" up!
That is exactly how I used to operate in the last band I was in. The band was together something like four years, and I don't ever once remember talking about keys, or related subjects. It was follow the chords of the guitar player and find something that sounds good. I wish I knew then what I know now.
I'll tell you, man. When it finally clicks in your brain you are gonna be so stoked! I've just got a basic handle on it, and it is the biggest musical breakthrough I've ever had. This is huge, and you're close to getting it.
What style of music do you play anyway? What are into? I would expect that somes styles of music don't employ this type of traditional theory. If you're into playing some kind of wacked out Death Metal this may not help you! ;^)
Anyway, I'm tired. I've got something for you tomorrow that I think might clear this "mess" up!
It is, isn't it?
To be honest, you'd be daft to try to memorise them all note for note right now. You've now got the ability to work it out pretty quickly. If you see a key signature with four sharps, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly that it was E major (or at least related to it) or if you were told a piece was in Db major, you'd be able to work out that it had five flats and they were Bb, Eb, Ab, Db and Gb.
What I'd do if I was teaching you would be to try to apply some of this stuff before going very much further. I'd get you to work through some basslines, looking at how bassists tackled chord progressions, how the most effective lines tend to have chord tones on the strong beats and how the root is often the most effective note to play on the first beat of the bar. How non-chord tones are used to link the chord tones, etc.
Of course, that would go hand-in-hand with work on rhythm and correct technique, so you're really talking about months of work.
Getting the right balance is tricky, but what I'd generally recommend is practicing scales and arpeggios for the first third of a practice session, for now going through the major scale, using each degree as a root and saying the corresponding chord name, for instance...
Cmaj7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C
C, E, G, B, C, B, G, E, C
Dm7
D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, C, B, A, G, F, E, D
D, F, A, C, D, C, A, F, D
etc.
Then the second third of the practice session could be devoted to working through studies which isolate particular technique issues.
Then the final third of the session could be put over to working on a classic bassline, with some attention paid to the theory behind the piece.
