I'm so lost...

[dlloyd]

Now to the topic at hand...Have we had a formal definition for key yet? I ask because you say you're playing in E minor pentatonic, but you're using three different scales, the other two of which don't derive from the E minor pentatonic. Or am I overthinking this? I'm just still muddy on the issue of what key a song is in, I guess.

A key is best thought of as a selection of notes that have a specific tonal centre. Remember the "tonic chord" I mentioned earlier? That's the tonal centre. The piece will tend to resolve to and rest on the tonic chord.

If the piece is in C major, the tonic chord is C. If the piece is in G minor, the tonic chord is Gm. The strongest way to resolve to the tonic chord is by way of an authentic cadence, where the penultimate chord is the dominant chord... V - I.

A scale is not the same as a key, although they correspond. If you play all the notes in the key of C major, in order, starting from C, you have a C major scale. However, take all the notes in C major and play them in order from A and you have an A "natural minor" scale. The keys of C major and A minor aren't the same though as they have different tonal centres.

If you look at Arizona Jones' example, he's playing in Em, which is the relative minor of G major.

The notes in Em are:
E, F#, G, A, B, C, D

The chords he's playing are:

Em7, chord tones = E, G, B, D
Am7, chord tones = A, C, E, G
Bm7, chord tones = B, D, F#, A

All you're doing in playing the pentatonic minor scales is in each case to add the fourth to the m7 chord tones.

Anyone who has noodled around with the pentatonic minor will have found, through trial and error, that it works best with the stronger chord tones on strong beats of the bar. That fourth sounds great as a passing tone, linking two chord tones, but sounds weak if you hit it, for example, on the first beat of the bar.

Of course, a lot of blues/rock guitarists and bassists are oblivious to the fact they're doing this because they learn by building up a library of riffs and never wonder why certain riffs work so well.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

That is exactly how I used to operate in the last band I was in. The band was together something like four years, and I don't ever once remember talking about keys, or related subjects. It was follow the chords of the guitar player and find something that sounds good. I wish I knew then what I know now.

Same here. When I first started playing, I learn the major and minor scales and that was the last bit of theory I learned until I started this thread.

...What style of music do you play anyway? What are into? I would expect that somes styles of music don't employ this type of traditional theory. If you're into playing some kind of wacked out Death Metal this may not help you! ;^)

No death metal. For the bulk of the time that I was playing in bands it was with one guitarist with various drummers and singers. The guy was really into old school punk like the sex pistols, or Subhumans, so we did alot of that, usually with me funking it up a bit, so I guess it was more ska-ish. Over the years we played covers of both the bands I mentioned, Sabbath, Zepplin, Primus, RHCP (Catholic school-girls do in fact rule), a few others. He went through this period of worshipping Nirvana so in the space of a month maybe, I learned every Nirvana song. But all our original music was solid heavy rock with some really funky basslines.

That's basically still what I play even though I'm not playing with anyone right now.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

It is, isn't it?
To be honest, you'd be daft to try to memorise them all note for note right now. You've now got the ability to work it out pretty quickly. If you see a key signature with four sharps, you'd be able to tell pretty quickly that it was E major (or at least related to it) or if you were told a piece was in Db major, you'd be able to work out that it had five flats and they were Bb, Eb, Ab, Db and Gb.

Oh so it's the number of sharps or flats, that determine the key! That may sound utterly stupid, but I haven't gotten that far yet with my music reading. I'm still working on learning the notes on the staff and rhythm.

What I'd do if I was teaching you would be to try to apply some of this stuff before going very much further. I'd get you to work through some basslines, looking at how bassists tackled chord progressions, how the most effective lines tend to have chord tones on the strong beats and how the root is often the most effective note to play on the first beat of the bar. How non-chord tones are used to link the chord tones, etc.

That sounds like fairly common-sensical stuff. I mean, you can pretty much feel that it's better to begin a measure with the root. I dunno, it always felt right to me anyway.

Of course, that would go hand-in-hand with work on rhythm and correct technique, so you're really talking about months of work.

I think my left hand technique is really good. I spent several months a few years ago retraining that hand. I'm pretty sure my right hand technique is gonna give me carpal tunnel syndrome someday though. I always rest my hand on the back of the bass, with my wrist bent at a pretty severe angle.
Plus I need to get that whole "floating thumb" thing down.

Getting the right balance is tricky, but what I'd generally recommend is practicing scales and arpeggios for the first third of a practice session, for now going through the major scale, using each degree as a root and saying the corresponding chord name, for instance...

Cmaj7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C
C, E, G, B, C, B, G, E, C

Dm7
D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, C, B, A, G, F, E, D
D, F, A, C, D, C, A, F, D

etc.

Then the second third of the practice session could be devoted to working through studies which isolate particular technique issues.

Then the final third of the session could be put over to working on a classic bassline, with some attention paid to the theory behind the piece.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I actually just learned a classical piece, a waltz by Schubert. It's very short as classical goes, but it's pretty neat. Stretched the hell out of my fingers.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

A key is best thought of as a selection of notes that have a specific tonal centre. Remember the "tonic chord" I mentioned earlier? That's the tonal centre. The piece will tend to resolve to and rest on the tonic chord.

If the piece is in C major, the tonic chord is C. If the piece is in G minor, the tonic chord is Gm. The strongest way to resolve to the tonic chord is by way of an authentic cadence, where the penultimate chord is the dominant chord... V - I.

A scale is not the same as a key, although they correspond. If you play all the notes in the key of C major, in order, starting from C, you have a C major scale. However, take all the notes in C major and play them in order from A and you have an A "natural minor" scale. The keys of C major and A minor aren't the same though as they have different tonal centres.

If you look at Arizona Jones' example, he's playing in Em, which is the relative minor of G major.

The notes in Em are:
E, F#, G, A, B, C, D

The chords he's playing are:

Em7, chord tones = E, G, B, D
Am7, chord tones = A, C, E, G
Bm7, chord tones = B, D, F#, A

All you're doing in playing the pentatonic minor scales is in each case to add the fourth to the m7 chord tones.

Ah, okay. I see now. The notes from all those scales are still within Em. That was what was confusing me. I guess I didn't look closely enough at the notes themselves, thinking too much about them being separate scales.

Anyone who has noodled around with the pentatonic minor will have found, through trial and error, that it works best with the stronger chord tones on strong beats of the bar. That fourth sounds great as a passing tone, linking two chord tones, but sounds weak if you hit it, for example, on the first beat of the bar.

Right, right. Like I said that seems like common sense to me. The way that I always did was by listening to the bass drum. Roots on the bass drum because that sets the tone for whatever you're playing, fills in between.

Of course, a lot of blues/rock guitarists and bassists are oblivious to the fact they're doing this because they learn by building up a library of riffs and never wonder why certain riffs work so well.

I don't have a huge library of riffs, but I've listened to tons of music in my life. That's pretty much me all over. Or was before this thread.

 

[dlloyd]

Oh so it's the number of sharps or flats, that determine the key!

Partially. You look to the key signature (next to the clef) and see how many sharps and flats there are. How the piece resolves determines whether it is major or minor.

For instance, no sharps or flats in the key signature would suggest C major or A minor. If it was C major, the last chord would tend to be C, if it was A minor, the last chord would tend to be Am.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Ah, okay. That makes sense. You keep using the phrase "Tend to be", does that mean that there's some other factor in determining the key?

 

[jadesmar]

Well, for one, songs don't have to stay in one key.

If there is a modulation to another key, you may find some transitory chords between sections that don't "belong" in either key.

So, you can't really determine key by the ending notes in this case.

Other songs may have an outtro section that is intended to "leave you hanging".. if this is the case, there will not be a strong resolve to the key center.

Other determining factors include accidentals. Classical songs in minor keys tend to have more of these, especially sharpening/unflattening the 6th and 7th notes of the minor scale.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Well, for one, songs don't have to stay in one key.

If there is a modulation to another key, you may find some transitory chords between sections that don't "belong" in either key.

So, you can't really determine key by the ending notes in this case.

Other songs may have an outtro section that is intended to "leave you hanging".. if this is the case, there will not be a strong resolve to the key center.

Other determining factors include accidentals. Classical songs in minor keys tend to have more of these, especially sharpening/unflattening the 6th and 7th notes of the minor scale.

Mmm...I see. It just gets more and more ocmplicated doesn't it?

 

[jadesmar]

Let's just say if a song was in C-major, the last chord would tend to be C and if the song was in A-minor, the last chord would tend to be Am.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Let's just say if a song was in C-major, the last chord would tend to be C and if the song was in A-minor, the last chord would tend to be Am.

Lol, yeah, let's say that. That's good enough for me at the moment.

 

[dlloyd]

Mmm...I see. It just gets more and more ocmplicated doesn't it?

No... it just gets even cooler.

It's only complicated and horrible until it's explained to you and you understand it. Then it's just "wow! I can't believe I didn't see that before... that's sooo coool!" Or something

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

No... it just gets even cooler.

It's only complicated and horrible until it's explained to you and you understand it. Then it's just "wow! I can't believe I didn't see that before... that's sooo coool!" Or something

Yeah, I think I've said something along those lines three or four, or twenty times in this thread.

I've been playing with these major scales and their arpeggios. But I was playing them as I was looking at our little chart of sharps and flats, and saying the notes out loud. I've actually memorized the C and G scales without even trying to. I have a feeling the others will come too.

 

[dlloyd]

Well, for one, songs don't have to stay in one key.

If there is a modulation to another key, you may find some transitory chords between sections that don't "belong" in either key.

So, you can't really determine key by the ending notes in this case.

Other songs may have an outtro section that is intended to "leave you hanging".. if this is the case, there will not be a strong resolve to the key center.

Other determining factors include accidentals. Classical songs in minor keys tend to have more of these, especially sharpening/unflattening the 6th and 7th notes of the minor scale.

All these things, plus the usual hesitance about making absolute statements (there's always some smartarse ready to come up with an exception).

There's also tunes which drift between major and minor tonalities while the key signature stays the same, and there's plenty of examples where cadences don't resolve to the tonic chord. For example, there's "deceptive cadences" where you get a V - vi resolution while maintaining a major tonality.

Meh.

 

[jadesmar]

Yeah, the "leave you hanging" bit meant to cover deceptive cadences perhaps.. YMMV.

 

[Arizona Jones]

"Chill out, will you? It wasn't directed at you."

Oh. Ok. Sorry about that then. Apologies all around.

 

[Arizona Jones]

Ok, the lack of sleep caught up with me, and I'm running a little late.

Let's put this in a "real world" situation.

You go over to a house to play with some guys that put a "Bass Player Wanted" ad in the paper. They say they want to run through two songs to see what you've got. These guys aren't your buddies, so you don't have time to noodle around and try to figure out what notes sound good with what chords.

But you're cool, because you know a litte theory.

The guitar player says, "let's do Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, in the Key of G." So, because you know a litte theory, you quickly figure out that the guitar player will more than likely be playing a couple, or all of the following chords G, C, D, A-, B-, E-.

Here's the root notes of the chords you'll be playing:

G, C, D played in a I, IV, V pattern

A-, B-, E- played in a ii, iii, vi pattern



We need to talk about a few things relating to this song, but I want to get it posted before it get's too late.

Disclaimer: My playing is rough on this, because I just got up a little while ago. I wouldn't approach the song like this either. I'm just try to get my point across. Another thing is that I haven't heard this song in years, and I don't think I've ever tried to play it. I played this after just a few passes through it to get the progression.

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

Ok, the lack of sleep caught up with me, and I'm running a little late.

Let's put this in a "real world" situation.

You go over to a house to play with some guys that put a "Bass Player Wanted" ad in the paper. They say they want to run through two songs to see what you've got. These guys aren't your buddies, so you don't have time to noodle around and try to figure out what notes sound good with what chords.

But you're cool, because you know a litte theory.

The guitar player says, "let's do Sitting on the Dock of the Bay, in the Key of G." So, because you know a litte theory, you quickly figure out that the guitar player will more than likely be playing a couple, or all of the following chords G, C, D, A-, B-, E-.

Here's the root notes of the chords you'll be playing:

G, C, D played in a I, IV, V pattern

A-, B-, E- played in a ii, iii, vi pattern



We need to talk about a few things relating to this song, but I want to get it posted before it get's too late.

Damn, those were some really nice fills. Now be honest, was that really improv?


Okay, so that was good, but now I gotta work one out on my own. I'll can't learn just by watching you do it.

 

[Arizona Jones]

I'm not trying to show you that I can play.

Did this help you to understand what Keys are at all?

 

[Arizona Jones]

"Now be honest, was that really improv?"

I haven't heard this song in years, and I don't think I've ever tried to play it. I played this after just a few passes through it to get the progression. I don't even own a copy. I had to download it last night.

This is what knowing some theory and the key can do!

 

[Ye_olde_dragon]

I know, I was just kidding you. That really was some nice playing though, it sounded good.


Yes, we are clear.

Key of G uses G, C, D, Amin, Bmin, Emin because A, B, and E are the ii, iii, and vi, respectively, the minor modes (is modes right? I don't know the word for that. Degrees?) of G. While G C D are the iv, v, and vii, the major...whatever the word is of G.

Correct?