This is basically your way of saying "Yeah, a vegetarian said it so it's probably a lie." Falsely discrediting it, and you even go as far as to say it's more well known so then it must be more of a lie. I don't see why you'd ask the source if you've already seen this on many sites already though. But yeah, Basically because they don't agree with you they must be wrong. This is because you can't argue with those facts. Anyway our intestines may not be the same size of a cow, but you're missing the point the intestines to size ratio of a cow and the ratio of a person's size to intestines are the same. We aren't as muscled as many true herbivores but we're not even muscled like a bear the true omnivore. Now this is something I noticed. Our teeth our supposed to have shrunk from not eating enough meat, at the same time you're saying our appendix shrunk because we were eating meat more than plants. Fact is our teeth are more like a cows than a bear or an opossum. Instead of getting the facts and deducing things, I feel like you're picking what you want and trying to find reasons to back them up. But they flop and fail. The only reason I'm kind of getting annoyed is because you've already pretty much proven that no matter what I say you'll just deny it as propaganda. And by the way, true herbivores can eat meat. Cows are often fed to each other. Research mad cow disease to find out about that. And I never argued vegetarianism as the healthiest diet so I don't know where your last paragraph came from.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
I'm thinking of going vegetarian
- Thread starter Fassa Albrecht
- Start date
This is basically your way of saying "Yeah, a vegetarian said it so it's probably a lie." Falsely discrediting it, and you even go as far as to say it's more well known so then it must be more of a lie. I don't see why you'd ask the source if you've already seen this on many sites already though. But yeah, Basically because they don't agree with you they must be wrong. This is because you can't argue with those facts. Anyway our intestines may not be the same size of a cow, but you're missing the point the intestines to size ratio of a cow and the ratio of a person's size to intestines are the same. We aren't as muscled as many true herbivores but we're not even muscled like a bear the true omnivore. Now this is something I noticed. Our teeth our supposed to have shrunk from not eating enough meat, at the same time you're saying our appendix shrunk because we were eating meat more than plants. Fact is our teeth are more like a cows than a bear or an opossum. Instead of getting the facts and deducing things, I feel like you're picking what you want and trying to find reasons to back them up. But they flop and fail. The only reason I'm kind of getting annoyed is because you've already pretty much proven that no matter what I say you'll just deny it as propaganda. And by the way, true herbivores can eat meat. Cows are often fed to each other. Research mad cow disease to find out about that. And I never argued vegetarianism as the healthiest diet so I don't know where your last paragraph came from.
Marc I might sound a bit rude. I'm sorry. I need to get off this thread. Haha I get to emotional on this subject.
I think his point was more that every side of the "argument" omits details, cites these "facts" and generally sounds biased. I thought what he was saying was that websites promoting a particular diet (meat/vegs) would be less believable if its "facts" supported that same view. No offense intended, but most of the websites I looked at that cite the arguments that you posted semed so passionately vegetarian that it was tough to take their arguments without wondering about bias.
If I read a website that was that "pro meat" that talked about physiological and anatomical reasons why people were supposed to eat meat I'd be just as skeptical... and I love eating animals. Its just tough to take a website with only information that agrees with its viewpoint at face value.
I honestly think that there are resonable arguments refuting many of the points that any of the vegetarian websites I looked at made about the way people were "meant" to eat. But then, the opposite is true too. Its just not as straightforward an argument as either side claims.
I think that people need to worry more about what they eat and less about what everone else does. But until then, I'm gonna slaivate when I see a deer (dead or alive), eat my meat as rare as I can without worrying about bacteria, and keep telling myself that people are smart enough not to be swept up by all the "propaganda".
Not sure if this is entirely pertinent, but here goes: I went nearly vegetarian several years ago to combat alopecia(latin for 'hair falls out for no apparent reason'). Dumped all red meat, dairy, preservatives & processed foods & severely limited poultry & to a lesser extent fish. Amazingly, although I've NEVER heard of 1 instance where this happened, the hair came back. I still try to eat this way but it's hard(kids, busy/lazy).
For further info look up Dr, Andrew Weil- I went w/his general preventative health maintenance diet.
Edit: For me, morals/spirituality/religious beliefs had little or nothing to do w/it- I just wanted my hair back.
Did somebody call me?
Even though Ive been a Vegan for more than seven years, I have to admit that resorting to eating meat is a part of my survival plan should the world become overrun with zombies.
John
John
Sometimes I find that some vegetarians are more interested in fitting into a box than anything else.
So my advice to the OP would be to not worry about becoming a "real" vegetarian, but rather what measures she can take to eat more healthy and ethical.
The last three months or so I have turned vegetarian for ethical and health reasons, but for convenience and pleasure I eat fish once in a while. If the situation really calls for it (it is rude to turn it down), I will also eat red meat. Haven´t really encountered such a situation yet, but presume I will next time I travel in Africa.
The point to me is not to be perfect, because nobody really is. I just feel that it´s better to eat way less meat, both from an ethical and health perspective. For me this works great, and it´s also the reasoning Peter Singer uses to "excuse" that he´s not vegan.
So again: Do what´s best for YOU, and don´t worry about the boxes.
So my advice to the OP would be to not worry about becoming a "real" vegetarian, but rather what measures she can take to eat more healthy and ethical.
The last three months or so I have turned vegetarian for ethical and health reasons, but for convenience and pleasure I eat fish once in a while. If the situation really calls for it (it is rude to turn it down), I will also eat red meat. Haven´t really encountered such a situation yet, but presume I will next time I travel in Africa.
The point to me is not to be perfect, because nobody really is. I just feel that it´s better to eat way less meat, both from an ethical and health perspective. For me this works great, and it´s also the reasoning Peter Singer uses to "excuse" that he´s not vegan.
So again: Do what´s best for YOU, and don´t worry about the boxes.
A
appler
Guest
To those of you who said that it's "natural" to eat meat because life feeds on life, that's what God/the higher power/nature intended, etc. I ask you: is it natural to travel by airplane? To work in a cubicle? I think part of the moral decision for vegetarianism is to realize that nowadays it's possible, even easy, to be healthy without killing animals, regardless of what nature intended. Maybe it even goes against what nature intended but that's irrelevant to the moral argument and we do it all the time in much more dramatic ways than being vegetarian.
I believe that whether it is right or wrong to kill animals for food is a personal decision and I would not expect anyone else to feel the same way as I did nor try to convince them that I am right.
In addition to the biological evidence of the health benefits of vegetarianism: chimpanzees and humans have nearly identical DNA. Chimps rarely eat meat, although they do eat insects. I submit it is possible that the differences in our DNA could include meat-eating characteristics.
Vegetarians, how do you politely refuse meat when others offer it to you?
I believe that whether it is right or wrong to kill animals for food is a personal decision and I would not expect anyone else to feel the same way as I did nor try to convince them that I am right.
In addition to the biological evidence of the health benefits of vegetarianism: chimpanzees and humans have nearly identical DNA. Chimps rarely eat meat, although they do eat insects. I submit it is possible that the differences in our DNA could include meat-eating characteristics.
Vegetarians, how do you politely refuse meat when others offer it to you?
Thanks,but I don't eat meat.
That sentence is followed by this conversation though:
-Oh we have some fish&/chicken if you like.
MG:When was the last time you saw a chicken growing on a tree?
-You NEVER eat meat?You don't eat fish,chicken? Oh gosh...
MG:Yea,I'm a vegeterian.
-Looks like I'm a poor freak,almost pitiying me.
I wonder what makes people think fish,chicken,turkey and whatever does not count as meat.
I have come across some situations in my life, though, where refusing an offer would be considered very rude. But usually it´s no problem to do what you said.
The reason people may not consider fish meat is probably because alot of vegetarians do eat it. So I think it´s reasonable to ask.
That doesn´t mean that those "vegetarians" who eat fish don´t consider it to be meat, though. They probably don´t care that much about being perfect vegetarians. And no, it´s not hypocrisy.
I totally agree with you,some people are vegans because of healt reasons so its normal to eat fish. Its not hypocrisy.
Once a teacher of mine told me a story.He was in Russia IIRC and was offered wine. "Rejecting the wine means spitting on their face" he told me. And he never ever drinks alcohol. He told me he got the wine,he put little amounts of it in his mouth and cleaned it up with a handkerchief.It took a long long while till he drunk(!) the wine.
I guess I'd choose to spit on their faces though.
Yeah, I remember when I got invited to eat with the chiefs in a Zimbabwean village. They arranged this huge gathering just for us whitees, and we had to eat on a podium. The whole village was watching. Given that I was not vegetarian at that time it was clearly no problem, but if it happens again I will not think twice about eating a little (and tasting that terrible home brewed beer when it´s passed around).
Well, I stumbled upon this thread a little late. Just got through reading all 173 posts and I must say, there sure is a lot of mis-information roiling around out there.
I will state for the record that I am a 3rd generation vegetarian, and that I am also a Seventh-day Adventist. If you dont mind, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions and give you my take on this subject.
First of all, SDAs are not vegetarians for religious reasons. In fact, not all SDAs are vegetarian, but I would say a majority are. We who do ascribe to a vege diet do so because we take to heart the belief that our bodies are the temple of God, and as such we should do all we can to maintain a healthy body/lifestyle. We feel that the healthier a body is, the more it can achieve whether it be physical, mental or spiritual. As part of this healthy lifestyle, most of us dont smoke or drink alcahol or take drugs indiscriminately. Here is a position statement on vegetarianism.......
Invalid Link Removed
I also understand that there are many who dont believe in God, or higher power or anything of that sort-and you have that right. I happen to believe in God, and creation and I am in no way trying to convince anyone to believe the way I do (even though the alternative,[i.e. evolution] takes more faith on less evidence than what I hold to be true). That being said, I would like to give you my perspective and I am going to speak from my perspective from here on out knowing that some of you dismiss my point of view entirely.
When God created this earth it was a paradise, and the Bible specifically states what the original diet was;
Gen. 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Animal products werent introduced into mans diet until after the flood and even then it was restricted as to certain types of animals and birds and fish. The main reasons for this are because there wasnt much vegetation directly after the flood (at least not for the first season) and because God knew that animal product consumption would shorten mans life so he had less of an opportunity to screw up society (like they did before the flood with their long lives).
When God came to the rescue of His people who were slaves in Egypt, one of the first things he did was to re-educate them as to what they could/should eat and specific ways it should be prepared (i.e. no blood-kosher). I think it is significsnt that God fed them the whole time they were enroute, and that it wasnt an animal based diet. In fact, because they were used to eating meat in Egypt, they complained about this lack of meat so God sent them some. Most of those who ate it got sick and died (not from poison, but from over eating).
Later in the Bible we find that when Babylon took Isreal into captivity that they weeded out the healthiest young nobles and put them into the kings special 'area' to be taught all the knowledge of Babylon. There were at least four of these young men who refused to eat the meat that they were served. They asked for a vegetarian diet. The guy who was their overseer was absolutely terrified that if he didnt keep these young men healthy, that he would lose his head. But, because he evidently liked them, he went along with it. Heres the story from Daniel 1
3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility-
4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians.
5 The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king's service.
6 Among these were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah.
7 The chief official gave them new names: to Daniel, the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego.
8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.
9 Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel,
10 but the official told Daniel, "I am afraid of my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men your age? The king would then have my head because of you."
11 Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah,
12 "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink.
13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see."
14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.
15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food.
16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.
17 To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.
18 At the end of the time set by the king to bring them in, the chief official presented them to Nebuchadnezzar.
19 The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they entered the king's service.
20 In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.
I am well aware that we as humans are able to eat a variety of things to stay alive. The human body is a wonderful thing, and will adapt to just about any situation. But that doesnt preclude there being an ideal. All the things that Alpha Male brought up are true-its been documented quite a few times in various ways.
As far as the cruelty to animals and the PETA people, I dont buy into it. The Bible says that the Earth wwas given unto man to subdue, so basically its our for the taking. That doesnt mean we shouldnt be good stewards of it, or that we shouldnt be kind and/or take good care of the animals (or trees, or environment), it just means they are ours to use as we see fit. Using them as pets, or for industry works for me.
Oh, and I am 6', 200lbs and healthy as a..uh, horse!
I will state for the record that I am a 3rd generation vegetarian, and that I am also a Seventh-day Adventist. If you dont mind, I'd like to clear up some misconceptions and give you my take on this subject.
First of all, SDAs are not vegetarians for religious reasons. In fact, not all SDAs are vegetarian, but I would say a majority are. We who do ascribe to a vege diet do so because we take to heart the belief that our bodies are the temple of God, and as such we should do all we can to maintain a healthy body/lifestyle. We feel that the healthier a body is, the more it can achieve whether it be physical, mental or spiritual. As part of this healthy lifestyle, most of us dont smoke or drink alcahol or take drugs indiscriminately. Here is a position statement on vegetarianism.......
Invalid Link Removed
I also understand that there are many who dont believe in God, or higher power or anything of that sort-and you have that right. I happen to believe in God, and creation and I am in no way trying to convince anyone to believe the way I do (even though the alternative,[i.e. evolution] takes more faith on less evidence than what I hold to be true). That being said, I would like to give you my perspective and I am going to speak from my perspective from here on out knowing that some of you dismiss my point of view entirely.
When God created this earth it was a paradise, and the Bible specifically states what the original diet was;
Gen. 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Animal products werent introduced into mans diet until after the flood and even then it was restricted as to certain types of animals and birds and fish. The main reasons for this are because there wasnt much vegetation directly after the flood (at least not for the first season) and because God knew that animal product consumption would shorten mans life so he had less of an opportunity to screw up society (like they did before the flood with their long lives).
When God came to the rescue of His people who were slaves in Egypt, one of the first things he did was to re-educate them as to what they could/should eat and specific ways it should be prepared (i.e. no blood-kosher). I think it is significsnt that God fed them the whole time they were enroute, and that it wasnt an animal based diet. In fact, because they were used to eating meat in Egypt, they complained about this lack of meat so God sent them some. Most of those who ate it got sick and died (not from poison, but from over eating).
Later in the Bible we find that when Babylon took Isreal into captivity that they weeded out the healthiest young nobles and put them into the kings special 'area' to be taught all the knowledge of Babylon. There were at least four of these young men who refused to eat the meat that they were served. They asked for a vegetarian diet. The guy who was their overseer was absolutely terrified that if he didnt keep these young men healthy, that he would lose his head. But, because he evidently liked them, he went along with it. Heres the story from Daniel 1
3 Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring in some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility-
4 young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians.
5 The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king's service.
6 Among these were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah.
7 The chief official gave them new names: to Daniel, the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego.
8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.
9 Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel,
10 but the official told Daniel, "I am afraid of my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men your age? The king would then have my head because of you."
11 Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah,
12 "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink.
13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see."
14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.
15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food.
16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.
17 To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.
18 At the end of the time set by the king to bring them in, the chief official presented them to Nebuchadnezzar.
19 The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they entered the king's service.
20 In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.
I am well aware that we as humans are able to eat a variety of things to stay alive. The human body is a wonderful thing, and will adapt to just about any situation. But that doesnt preclude there being an ideal. All the things that Alpha Male brought up are true-its been documented quite a few times in various ways.
As far as the cruelty to animals and the PETA people, I dont buy into it. The Bible says that the Earth wwas given unto man to subdue, so basically its our for the taking. That doesnt mean we shouldnt be good stewards of it, or that we shouldnt be kind and/or take good care of the animals (or trees, or environment), it just means they are ours to use as we see fit. Using them as pets, or for industry works for me.
Oh, and I am 6', 200lbs and healthy as a..uh, horse!
