Improv tips (non-theory based)

[Wiremessiah]

It's about hearing, not counting, Sparky. Any Level 42 fan could hear a copy of MK a mile away. Its actually laughable how much of a copy Hellborg is. If you are still playing in 5 years, you may hear the similarities yourself.

Yep, sounds exact to me. Btw, hellborg has been playing longer than king, who didnt invent slapping, and was playing with jazz legends in the 70s. I know you got fanboyitis, but your level of willful ignornace is astonishing. I mean i dont expect you to understand indian rhythm, but to say you do by just hearing "exactly" is absurd and you know it. Anyway you have been trolling since your debut on this thread so obviously you are just out to whine.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Yeah, we could all maybe use a reminder not to let our prejudices and theories get in the way of careful listening.

Like, for example, the person just a little earlier in this thread who said "western music... focuses on cold mathematical structure." Or "Coltrane was a fabulous technical player, but so technical with so many flurries of notes that the notes become meaningless, like he's just shredding without feeling any of the notes."

Thats debateable at best, but its not like i havent listened to coltrane carefully. I have studied his compositions and solos, and i dont think my description is coming from a place of ignorance. Simply stating an informed opinion that you disagree with is not being closed minded. If people were to study indian classia rhythm at least as much as i have studied coltrane, then their opinion would be legitimate. But to think you can evaluate a thousands year old system just by hearing one example of it even you would agree is naive.i have listened to the vast majority of tranes albums and many other performances.

 

[bfields]

to think you can evaluate a thousands year old system just by hearing one example of it

Nobody said that. I've heard Indian percussion that I've absolutely loved. The particular videos you posted didn't really do it for me, that's all, and not because I thought the musicians were bad. But, hey, I only listened to them once. So:

You are are not listening to the rhythms, or understanding them.

Make the case, if you want. Take one of the rhythms from that video and take it apart for us and show us what you think is great about it. I'd love to read something like that, really.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Make the case, if you want. Take one of the rhythms from that video and take it apart for us and show us what you think is great about it. I'd love to read something like that, really.

I'd be interested in that myself. I have a passing interest in South Indian Classical theory. Might be worthwhile for someone who is into it to demonstrate what is going on.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Nobody said that. I've heard Indian percussion that I've absolutely loved. The particular videos you posted didn't really do it for me, that's all, and not because I thought the musicians were bad. But, hey, I only listened to them once. So:



Make the case, if you want. Take one of the rhythms from that video and take it apart for us and show us what you think is great about it. I'd love to read something like that, really.

Grylls did. He was astonishingly able to process the subdivisions exactly without even counting. Thats genius. Anyway, i cant teach you carnatic rhythm in a forum. But you dont need to play a drum, you can learn vocal rhythms from a teacher, and it will allow you to express complex rhythms that are tied to your speech center of the brain. Imagine how complex the rhythms of speech are, and how easily we can express them without thinking. But if you dont find it appealing prima fascia, then perhaps its not even worth it for you to pursue. However i will say that it has almost universal appeal. I even remember holding my baby nephew with his feet on my knees and reciting some indian vocal "konokal" and him dancing. Its a thousands year old system, and for people used to western music, it can be an acquired taste. But it has opened up new and exciting paths for me. Just the speech association has improved my bass and kit playing immensely. I find my fingers and limbs are not anywhere near as accurate rhythmically as my speech, and i use my speech to sync up my body. Especially with odd times and complex rhythms.

 

[mambo4]

Might be worthwhile for someone who is into it to demonstrate what is going on.

 

[mambo4]

Konnakol seems useful for building a feel for complex meters
I was able to use a variant of ta ka di mi to help my 16th note reading early on.

but I eventually abandoned it because it seems to lack the rhythmic explanatory power of western notation
when it comes to rests, ties, dotted notes, note duration, and the use of space (all things you can explore as you improvise!)

 

[Wiremessiah]

Konnakol seems useful for building a feel for complex meters
I was able to use a variant of ta ka di mi to help my 16th note reading early on.

but I eventually abandoned it because it seems to lack the rhythmic explanatory power of western notation
when it comes to rests, ties, dotted notes, note duration, and the use of space (all things you can explore as you improvise!)

Learn compositions from an actual teacher, preferably with a drum. You cant expect to understand an entire system from an internet video. Anyway, its not just complex meter, its complex subdivisions which would would be a tangle of messy notation to transcribe. Imagine trying to transcribe selvaganesh's solo on that hellborg track. Notation is relatively very limiting when it comes to playing complex and ever changing patterns. Plus, again tying rhythm to speech is far more expressive.

 

[BassChuck]

Theory is important and it WILL unlock a lot of things and organize your thoughts.

1.) That said, when improvising it's best to remember that RHYTHM is the most important part of any music style. Interesting rhythm patterns will always carry the day over a clever selection of notes.
2.) Always connect with the reason you are improvising. Song or chord progression, whatever it is, connect with some aspect of that and don't leave the listeners in the dust.
3.) Make musical sense. Most people would rather listen to someone telling a story (even if it's boring) than listen to someone ramble on about themselves. Give people a reason to listen to your music.
4.) Have enough sense to bow out when you've almost said enough. Leave the listener wanting just a little more.

 

[bassbully]

Very interesting thread. I have long been intrigued by musical improve and am a big fan of it. I am currently working on an improve group who will experiment with improv and experimentation of music.
Its hard to find people who like to float in that boat. I believe we all have music in us its just some cannot express it or express it well. For me the greatest reward as a player is when something happens musically that is organic, free and improvised that turns into a nice piece of music. That is freeing my mind and a path I'm going to work hard on exploring.