In front of the beat

[Groove Master]

Very interesting to be in-front while simultaneously being at the same time!

OP,

The Count Basie track I posted is a great example of a bass played in front of the beat even without the ride in the first 2 chorus and then you can really hear how the ride comes in with a greater push of the beat. And this is done without any noticeable increase of the tempo. It might push a bit, I haven't analyse it in a software and I am not really interested at doing it anyway. I just take notes when I listen to great playing like this. I think it is worth studying it ;-)

Hope this helps,
GM

 

[dreamadream99]

Can you explain why some say that a walking bass line in some jazz music is best when slightly in front of the beat?

For me it's conditional. On a chugging bebop, I play slightly ahead to keep it from bogging down (which it tends to do with horn players), and on an excruciatingly slow ballad, I play slightly behind the beat, to keep it from snowballing (which it tends to do with rhythm sections).

Since you are admittedly a recent convert to jazz bass, I advise you not to worry about ahead or behind—just try to play long notes on the beat. Instead, develop your walking skills.

 

[Groove Master]

For me it's conditional. On a chugging bebop, I play slightly ahead to keep it from bogging down (which it tends to do with horn players), and on an excruciatingly slow ballad, I play slightly behind the beat, to keep it from snowballing (which it tends to do with rhythm sections).

Since you are admittedly a recent convert to jazz bass, I advise you not to worry about ahead or behind—just try to play long notes on the beat. Instead, develop your walking skills.

Playing with the right feel is the most important part of a walking bass.

It is better to play the right feel with wrong notes then the other way around, seriously!

It is useless to play the right notes with the wrong feel.

Practicing the time-feel in a walking bass is the most overlooked aspect of this technique unfortunately.

 

[AGCurry]

You misunderstand quantized-feel and play in the pocket.

Here is a Basie tune:

Tell me where the bass is played even without the drums...

I would appreciate an answer please

I don't think I misunderstand "quantized." I've "slid" notes while mixing in computer software, and I understand and agree with your (implied) point that "perfect" timing a la technopop is not a swing thing.

But the first order of business of bass playing is timing, and for all practical purposes the ability of the bassist to put the note on the beat is job one. The Basie piece you shared? From my listening, I hear the attack of finger-on-string on the beat and the "bloom" of the note following it. This is more a double-bass thing than a bass-guitar thing, and very typical. The attacks of the four beats of a 4/4 measure are pretty much on the money to my ear.

Yes, things can change when you go to a shuffle, or a jazz waltz, or even "Kansas-City style" vs. "Chicago style." But that's more about the other players.

My bigger argument is with those who say that upbeats should be emphasized, or even that one should play against them. Here's a link to the Basie classic "One-O-Clock Jump." Note that NONE of the rhythm section emphasizes 2 and 4. Not Jo Jones, not Walter Page, not Freddie Green, not Bill Basie. And it swings!

 

[Groove Master]

I don't think I misunderstand "quantized." I've "slid" notes while mixing in computer software, and I understand and agree with your (implied) point that "perfect" timing a la technopop is not a swing thing.

But the first order of business of bass playing is timing, and for all practical purposes the ability of the bassist to put the note on the beat is job one. The Basie piece you shared? From my listening, I hear the attack of finger-on-string on the beat and the "bloom" of the note following it. This is more a double-bass thing than a bass-guitar thing, and very typical. The attacks of the four beats of a 4/4 measure are pretty much on the money to my ear.

Yes, things can change when you go to a shuffle, or a jazz waltz, or even "Kansas-City style" vs. "Chicago style." But that's more about the other players.

My bigger argument is with those who say that upbeats should be emphasized, or even that one should play against them. Here's a link to the Basie classic "One-O-Clock Jump." Note that NONE of the rhythm section emphasizes 2 and 4. Not Jo Jones, not Walter Page, not Freddie Green, not Bill Basie. And it swings!

I honestly don't know where to start but I will say this: Everyone perception is different I guess.

But I 'll try to explain few things from my perceptive and experience.

First I would like to say that it is not because the walking bass notes are quarter-notes that it means they are played on the beat !

As for the bass be played exactly on the beat is correct but not in every styles of music. Reggae will call for a very laid-back playing while jazz usually will call for a more ahead feel, depending on the tempo.

A played-ahead walking cannot be written in note value, it is a feel that makes the music swings. So is reggae with its own feel.

For the Basie tune you posted, it is impossible with a recording of that era to say that no one in the band is not accentuating the 2 & 4. I actually hear the 2 and 4 all over the place even in a recording that lacks definition like that one. But again it is every one perception...

Enough said, I'll stick with my example of Prime Time from Count Basie as a very good version of a noticeable played-ahead walking bass with the drums and the ride cymbal. I will let the TB members decide for themselves. Groove and feel are very hard to teach especially on a forum like this ;-)

Take care

 

[MtManiac]

It doesn't make sense to me how y'all can say that one should practice with the metronome on 2&4 to build feel but that those beats are not played with subtle accent? Why would one practice that way then? A metronome playing quarter notes is the most even walking line you can get...? Not marking the 1&3 with a click makes them feel weaker. Show me the lie?

I think the disconnect with my comment is that y'all didn't take the word "subtle" with enough weight. How we ever got into different time signatures in this thread is completely beyond me. Anyone ever "walked" a waltz "ahead of the beat"? GTFO here with that POOPIE [sic]
/troll

Bass does not accent 2&4 in jazz. The kick and the bass own 1&3, but bass also does not accent those beats. Just listen to some Paul Chambers. Practicing with the metronome on 2&4 gives you the feel of the the downbeat, 2&4 are emphasized in the arrangement by the snare and the comping instrument, piano or guitar. 2&4 is where the swing is. You don't accent them, but you have to know where they are, and internalize where they are, or you won't swing.

 

[bassicstu]

TLDR: Can you explain why some say that a walking bass line in some jazz music is best when slightly in front of the beat?

My backstory: I'm rehearsing songs with a trio, a drummer, a violinist/vocals, including myself. We want to try and book wedding gigs and corporate gigs in the spring as a jazz band. We know about 10 jazz covers right now, we need to tighten them up still. I'm in over my head but I'm trying to keep up!

I come from a guitar background and know some scales, modes, etc, but have been dedicated to the bass for the last couple of years. My daily practice at the moment is about 30mins-1.5 hrs a day. I'm currently working on strengthening my sense of timing and rhythm. Practicing with a metronome. I'm hearing people say that walking bass lines can work well in front of the beat. Can you explain why this works? Are there challenges to this that you find? Do you know when not to use it?

Short answer it sounds better. Listen to Stephane Grappelli's Live at Carnegie Hall CD. Mr Torff, plays walking bass lines that anticipates the beat. FYI Mr Grappelli was Django Reinhardt's fiddle player.