In front of the beat

[Brodizzle]

TLDR: Can you explain why some say that a walking bass line in some jazz music is best when slightly in front of the beat?

My backstory: I’m rehearsing songs with a trio, a drummer, a violinist/vocals, including myself. We want to try and book wedding gigs and corporate gigs in the spring as a jazz band. We know about 10 jazz covers right now, we need to tighten them up still. I’m in over my head but I’m trying to keep up!

I come from a guitar background and know some scales, modes, etc, but have been dedicated to the bass for the last couple of years. My daily practice at the moment is about 30mins-1.5 hrs a day. I’m currently working on strengthening my sense of timing and rhythm. Practicing with a metronome. I’m hearing people say that walking bass lines can work well in front of the beat. Can you explain why this works? Are there challenges to this that you find? Do you know when not to use it?

 

[5StringBlues]

Opinions vary on this but here's my take on it.


When you play in front of the beat and the drummer holds it down, it creates a tension that brings a certain feel to the music.

You can also reverse this, having a drummer play on top of the heat while the bass lays back. We do this quite a bit in blues shuffles.


Some people don't like this and want it all locked down. I like it myself.

 

[AGCurry]

Opinions vary on this but here's my take on it.

When you play in front of the beat and the drummer holds it down, it creates a tension that brings a certain feel to the music.

You can also reverse this, having a drummer play on top of the heat while the bass lays back. We do this quite a bit in blues shuffles.

Yes, correct. It really depends on the players, the song, and the desired feel... in other words, just about everything. I wouldn't worry about quantifying it; rather, experience the feel of different approaches. It's what I would call advanced technique seldom discussed by the players; they just do it instinctively.

The drummer's role is further complicated by the fact that he/she should generally keep the right foot on the beat. It's the hi-hat and hands that may be ahead or behind.

 

[eJake]

At the beginning work on subtly emphasizing the 2 and 4 beats of your walking line. This will help to build your feel.

Playing ahead is something that needs to be felt (not heard or played) to find the pocket.

 

[AGCurry]

At the beginning work on subtly emphasizing the 2 and 4 beats of your walking line. This will help to build your feel.

??
I disagree completely.

 

[eJake]

??
I disagree completely.

Ok...?

 

[Groove Master]

TLDR: Can you explain why some say that a walking bass line in some jazz music is best when slightly in front of the beat?

My backstory: I’m rehearsing songs with a trio, a drummer, a violinist/vocals, including myself. We want to try and book wedding gigs and corporate gigs in the spring as a jazz band. We know about 10 jazz covers right now, we need to tighten them up still. I’m in over my head but I’m trying to keep up!

I come from a guitar background and know some scales, modes, etc, but have been dedicated to the bass for the last couple of years. My daily practice at the moment is about 30mins-1.5 hrs a day. I’m currently working on strengthening my sense of timing and rhythm. Practicing with a metronome. I’m hearing people say that walking bass lines can work well in front of the beat. Can you explain why this works? Are there challenges to this that you find? Do you know when not to use it?

Because the ride cymbal is played ahead of the beat usually by a good drummer and the bass should be right in the middle of that "TING".

Walking like the name is saying is a walking effect so it should move ahead not staying in place.

Also the best way to improve your feel is by practicing with the metronome on 2 and 4. This is where the groove is happening in any styles actually but even more in jazz. Make sure you do that.
I have found that some ranges of tempos call for a different time feel if you focus on the 2 & 4. That might help you to feel when the walking should be laid back, on the beat or ahead.

 

[Nashrakh]

The bass must always be ahead of the beat because trumpets are always lagging behind. Just kidding.

I'll echo what Groove Master said - in jazz workshops I've been given the recommendation to synchronize your bass lines to the ride cymbal for the best feel. As to whether to actively accent beats 2 and 4, most people will advise against that - but practicing to a metronome clicking on 2 and 4 only is a great thing to explore, I like it.

 

[Brodizzle]

So it sounds like a “feel” thing. Plus a metronome on the 2 and 4 Is helpful practice. I’m interested in the following quote:

It's what I would call advanced technique seldom discussed by the players; they just do it instinctively.

I’d like to read a thread dedicated to this topic!

 

[AGCurry]

There are whole worlds of music, each having its own rhythmic conventions. Many of these worlds (surprise!) do not involve drummers with trap sets.

If you confine yourself to the rock and rock-and-roll worlds, it may be appropriate to focus on the 2-and-4 upbeats, but I wouldn't recommend emphasizing those beats, because that's what a snare drum is for.
If you are playing in other worlds with predominantly 2/4 time signatures, this might get you in trouble.

If you're playing waltzes, what then?
How about 1960s soul (lots of 6/8 and 12/8)?
And of course, James Brown ("give me the ONE!").

Most Swing music of the 1930s and 1940s required four beats per measure played very evenly, without emphasizing an upbeat.

Then, of course, there are forms without trap sets: Middle Eastern, African, Cuban, Irish, and ... Classical!

Listen to Mexican waltzes. They manage to delay beats 2 and 3 in a way that will challenge you.

In order to play well in any particular world of music, you have to know how it's supposed to sound and be able to make it so. The greatest "rock drummer" or "Latin bassist" cannot play country and western right unless he/she knows how to adjust.

 

[eJake]

It doesn’t make sense to me how y’all can say that one should practice with the metronome on 2&4 to build feel but that those beats are not played with subtle accent? Why would one practice that way then? A metronome playing quarter notes is the most even walking line you can get...? Not marking the 1&3 with a click makes them feel weaker. Show me the lie?

I think the disconnect with my comment is that y’all didn’t take the word “subtle” with enough weight. How we ever got into different time signatures in this thread is completely beyond me. Anyone ever ”walked” a waltz ”ahead of the beat”? GTFO here with that POOPIE [sic]
/troll

 

[Groove Master]

It doesn’t make sense to me how y’all can say that one should practice with the metronome on 2&4 to build feel but that those beats are not played with subtle accent? Why would one practice that way then? A metronome playing quarter notes is the most even walking line you can get...? Not marking the 1&3 with a click makes them feel weaker. Show me the lie?

I think the disconnect with my comment is that y’all didn’t take the word “subtle” with enough weight. How we ever got into different time signatures in this thread is completely beyond me. Anyone ever ”walked” a waltz ”ahead of the beat”? GTFO here with that POOPIE [sic]
/troll

I hear you.

2&4 are very important in the feel and the best place to accentuate them is on repeated notes.

Also a steady quantized quarter-notes walking bass will not be swinging. I feel that depending on the tempo of course that the time is actually elastic. The drummer is playing his ride ahead of the beat but the hi-hat on 2&4 will be on the beat. So as a bass player I play with the ride AND the hi-hat. So I play ahead but at the same time I lean on the 2&4.

And Yes it is a feel thing !

 

[5StringBlues]

Bumping this because there is good information here.

 

[Brodizzle]

I hear you.

The drummer is playing his ride ahead of the beat but the hi-hat on 2&4 will be on the beat. So as a bass player I play with the ride AND the hi-hat. So I play ahead but at the same time I lean on the 2&4.

And Yes it is a feel thing !

Very interesting to be in-front while simultaneously being at the same time!

 

[AGCurry]

Also a steady quantized quarter-notes walking bass will not be swinging.

If this is true, then I guess we need to say that Django Reinhardt's Hot Five and Count Basie's orchestra didn't swing.

 

[Groove Master]

If this is true, then I guess we need to say that Django Reinhardt's Hot Five and Count Basie's orchestra didn't swing.

I didn't know that CB and DR used computers with their music...

 

[Groove Master]

Very interesting to be in-front while simultaneously being at the same time!

Actually like I said it is a feel thing. While you play ahead of the beat you focus and tap on the 2&4 to make sure you don't rush the tempo..On slower tempo you can also lean on those beats while playing.. The caterpillar effect ;-)

 

[AGCurry]

I didn't know that CB and DR used computers with their music...

I didn't know you needed a computer to play on the beat!

 

[Groove Master]

I didn't know you needed a computer to play on the beat!

You misunderstand quantized-feel and play in the pocket.

Here is a Basie tune:

Tell me where the bass is played even without the drums...

I would appreciate an answer please

 

[JRA]

IME: the 'rules' for any of this are written while playing...depending on who is playing the drums and the bass, assuming both are competent players!

for a good jazz drummer: it's the hi-hat (thus practicing with a metronome on 2 and 4 as a bassist) which tells you everything you need to know (as the bassist). the kick is rarely/sparingly used but always felt, if not heard. the ride cymbal exists on top of the walk and it's often where the drummer takes the coolest 'liberties' and really plays his 'jazz'. again: it's the hat.

you can pedantic-ize all of this as much as you want, but: within a few measures after the count-off, when the 'rubber meets the road' = before/on/after the beat is secondary to what it is you're doing with the information you're getting, in real time, from the hat. accenting the 2 and 4 while walking isn't a thing --- unless it's supposed to be for a particular tune/arrangement.

per the OP: i'm with the group who'd say: "it doesn't matter" without a context + a specific drummer. so 'what you heard' doesn't mean a lot (all by itself) to this player. good luck with your jazz, walks, time, etc!