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In Light of the Gibson Raid (Revived old threads)

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This issue is a convergence of so many hot topics.

Where would you like to take this issue next?
1) Federal government wants to rob musicians
2) Whether big government is good or not
3) Moving American manufacturing jobs overseas
4) Rupert Murdoch and News Corps
5) Whether tone wood matters
6) Environment sustainability
 
I'm a huge fan of alternative solutions to the same old problems.

Why do electric instruments need to be made of wood? Yeah, I know "tone woods" and such, but really, you can use an EQ and pickups to get about any tone you want.

Could basses not be made of carbon fiber or some sort of composite material? Something that humidity and temp have no effect on. No truss rod needed.

I understand the nuances of wood as it relates to acoustic instruments, but still...this is a new time. It's not the 1500's anymore. We have technology to engineer materials that could mimic any type of wood we want. Just because instruments have been made of wood for years doesn't mean there isn't a better alternative.

I'm not a tree hugger, but I see no reason to destroy a tree when something just as good or better is available.
 
I'm a huge fan of alternative solutions to the same old problems.

Why do electric instruments need to be made of wood? Yeah, I know "tone woods" and such, but really, you can use an EQ and pickups to get about any tone you want.

Could basses not be made of carbon fiber or some sort of composite material? Something that humidity and temp have no effect on. No truss rod needed.

I understand the nuances of wood as it relates to acoustic instruments, but still...this is a new time. It's not the 1500's anymore. We have technology to engineer materials that could mimic any type of wood we want. Just because instruments have been made of wood for years doesn't mean there isn't a better alternative.

I'm not a tree hugger, but I see no reason to destroy a tree when something just as good or better is available.


modulus FTW
 
This issue is a convergence of so many hot topics.

Where would you like to take this issue next?
1) Federal government wants to rob musicians
2) Whether big government is good or not
3) Moving American manufacturing jobs overseas
4) Rupert Murdoch and News Corps
5) Whether tone wood matters
6) Environment sustainability


7) multi-national corporation pillaging 3rd world nations for their resources
 
If you watched any of the American Loggers shows, you might have seen on several of their episodes where they interviewed American lumber mills and wood distributors and where each describe the new endangered species laws and how their operations track all of their wood products from harvest to manufacturer electronically. Essentially there is a chain of custody that is maintained throughout the process on all wood produced by sustainable, eco-friendly producers. The system helps avoid the problem of getting illegally harvested lumber into the system.

I think this type of process is useful and necessary. While the manufacture of musical instruments is only a small part of the endandered species equation, rapid population growth and modernization on the global level is putting severe pressure on many populations of tree species and a system of sustainable harvesting really is needed in order to prevent the loss of those resources completely.
 
All of this is assuming that Gibson was not in compliance, but in fact they are in compliance. And no charges were actually laid last time around - the wood got confiscated, though, and never returned.
 
How does Alder and Maple score in the sustainability charts?

Short of one fretboard, my two basses are made of Alder and Maple. I believe that we do have the technology to have synthetic "woods" with the same density and vibration absorbance/transference of any wood available, but the cost is probably prohibitive at this point.

I do not attribute a whole lot to tone wood, so I am happy to buy instruments in Paulownia if it turns out to be a good sustainable choice. The question is whether the big manufacturers have any reason or incentive to switch to it, and whether buyers have any interest to buy them.
 
Gibson was in compliance. They were actually ahead of what the gov't is accusing them of. This is another snow job by the gov't.
The case is due to an Indian Law, not our law. Gibson has not broken any of our laws. It says, all indian wood must be in a finished product. Why is our gov't enforcing their laws?

I heard an interview today with the CEO of Gibson. They have over 2,000 employees and have recently hired several. This is costing them over 2 million in lost expenses, wood, etc. Now the gov't is pushing them to move to India.

If the gov't is trying to kill jobs, they are well on their way. Hello banana republic! De O!
 
Gibson was in compliance. They were actually ahead of what the gov't is accusing them of. This is another snow job by the gov't.
The case is due to an Indian Law, not our law. Gibson has not broken any of our laws. It says, all indian wood must be in a finished product. Why is our gov't enforcing their laws?

I heard an interview today with the CEO of Gibson. They have over 2,000 employees and have recently hired several. This is costing them over 2 million in lost expenses, wood, etc. Now the gov't is pushing them to move to India.

If the gov't is trying to kill jobs, they are well on their way. Hello banana republic! De O!

guys i don't want this thread shut down can we get away from comments like this and keep it to the issue of alternative woods and how we as musicians feel about looking for alternatives to time honored or industry standard woods?
 
Do they shut down threads for mentioning politics?



I really think one reason sustainable woods havent caught on is because many players are so set in their ways and refuse to progress with the times.
 
This is my first reply so please forgive clumsy mechanics. Also forgive long post .. perhaps useful info...

I read the posts about the recent Gibson factory raid. I just had my own Lacey Act adventure and it might bring the matter into tighter focus for youse.

My tale started with me looking to buy an older "Darkwood" Cirrus BXP. I have since found threads on TB that suggest it is mahogany - but maybe not - and was made in Indonesia in the late 1990s. What I heard was that as an early non-Chinese import BXP, it might be a worthwhile bass.

I found a potential candidate on ebay late in July and ... won the auction on August 4. Seller is private individual in a rural Canadian town about 95 miles north of the US border. Seller elected to ship via UPS. Manifested Item = Bass Guitar, Value = $100. His elections, not mine. I began to periodicaly track.

The bass made it to Plattsburgh NY on Aug 9, where it sat - ultimately until Aug 19. I initially assumed it was some sort of marshalling hold, waiting for a full truck or some such. Nope, that was not the problem. I called UPS ...

...the problem was the Lacey Act, amended late in 2008 to better control the import of plants and woods. Ostensibly by reducing demand for endangered woods, exploitive overlogging in developing nations can be reduced. UPS, Canada, and US Customs want to know what my Peavey bass is made of and where it was made (I flashed on past post by TB'er BigOldHarry: "And for a Peavey? Man... Cats sleeping with dogs. .... I'd say the end times ARE near!)

I told them I didn't know what the bass was made of and since I wasn't holding the thing, couldn't confirm origination. I told them Chinese BXPs aren't marked as such. So, sensing a Catch22, I winged it with something like 'all my other Peaveys were made in the USA, and made of US maple and ash and alder.' I also suggested that the model I bought was nearly 10 years old, predating the Lacey Amendments by maybe eight years. I also mentioned that the seller had bought the thing at a US retailer and carried it home across the US/Canada border in his car ten years ago.

Sadly, UPS also contacted the previously uncommunicative seller who speculated that the bass may have been built of wenge in southeast asia. I'll skip the ensuing UPS/Customs/yours-truly dialogue which included 'knowingly mislead'. By now, I'm thinking I'm trapped in a Russian novel. For a Peavey! SWEET ZOMBIE JESUS!

Here are some more details:

  • I had to enlist UPS customs brokers to process the Lacey Act and country of origin paperwork. It cost me nearly as much as my pretty sweet auction deal.
  • I had to sign powers of attorney for UPS so they could fill out paperwork and pitch my case to US Customs.
  • I had to attest to everyone involved that I wasnt an exploitive commercial importer of wood and acknowledge that if I was fibbin, it was $15,000 and/or jail time.
  • And US Customs opened up the box, pulled the bass out inspected it, tagged it, taped it, and repacked it - poorly.
Sure enough: crafted in Indonesia.

Most of above was required before the bass was inspected and revealed to have been originally imported from Indonesia. I deduce that the same thing would have happened if I had tried to get a USA T-40.

I have no idea why we went through all this and yet US Customs opened up a box and found a deep red/brown wooden bass stamped with 'Indonesia' - and sent it through.

I got my bass in good order on August 26 - two days after the Gibson raid. UPS demanded brokerage payment before handing me the box.

So, this whole Lacey Act situation is very real and I would think could really cramp up int'l auction shipping, other retail shipping and travelling to exotic lands like Canada to play a gig... Naturally, YMMV.

I'll further intuit that it must be an especially bad time to ship a bass made of hemp.

BTW, the bass is beautiful. Unhappily, it doesnt know many songs.
 
Jatoba is not cherry; not even close!

It is also not endangered- again, not even close!

Endiandra globosa is not "walnut"- it's "black walnut"- a total misnomer, anyway.

If you had used the species names, or even taken the time to type the word "black", I would have understood the references (at least the "walnut" one). Instead you used the common vernacular for common trees in the U.S.- to what end I'm not sure. Maybe it was just laziness.

Let's not forget 2000 fellow countrymen of yours newly laid-off by another short-sighted, politically motivated imperial edict. I happen to think they're more important than any tree, but I've noticed that most environmentalists seem to be pretty "down" on their fellow humans (well, at least the ones who too-closely resemble the image in the mirror). Your sacrifice (?) is playing a goofy-looking instrument; their sacrifice is losing their livelihood. How you thought you could bootstrap your belief system on the misery of others in a public forum and somehow avoid a political discussion is beyond me.

i don't want this thread shut down can we get away from comments like this and keep it to the issue of alternative woods

Then you need to wean yourself from semantic sleight-of-hand (or sloppiness) like I referred to in the beginning of this post. I get too strong of a BS odor from it. The very title of this thread comes off as scolding, which nobody wants to hear and you don't have any sort of moral standing to do, anyway. The language of your previous two threads was much more neutral and didn't involve a link to a news story which is obviously very emotional and dramatic (and political) in nature. Reviving one of those threads, or starting a new one with the same premise would have been a better way to go. Standing at the scene of a tragedy and saying "See? I told you so!" is a good way to get punched in the face, and for no good reason. "In light of the Gibson Raid", I want to trade in my basses for a Gibson guitar, and maybe put another on a credit card;) how's that?

7) multi-national corporation pillaging 3rd world nations for their resources

So Austrailia, India and Brazil are "third world nations"? Please. Let's remember that no Gibson employees cut down any of these trees. You can take your righteous indignation straight into the rainforest, to the guys who are doing the cutting. Maybe they'll do you the signal honor of laughing in your face before shooting you (OTOH, you'll emit less CO2). The local authorities there, who subsist on the bribes, know better. The local authorities here, who subsist on tax dollars and seizures, DON'T know any better, they just follow orders.

Listen, dude, I obviously don't share alot of your views, but I do own a non-wood instrument (which I love) and recycle wood in my own projects whenever possible. I've always wondered why nobody uses american Cherry in basses. I've always enjoyed working with it (love that smell!) and it looks killer. Until I try it myself I'll just have to assume there's a good reason for not using it that I just haven't discovered yet:).

And despite my comment about buying some Gibson guitars, I also realize that it would be almost impossible to support a local retailer if I did so. (yes, that is important to me):( If this (or anything else) indeed spells the end of the company, they might wish they had treated their smaller vendors more fairly instead of putting all their eggs in the Guitar Center/ Musicians Friend basket.:scowl:
 
All of this is assuming that Gibson was not in compliance, but in fact they are in compliance.

According to Gibson.

And no charges were actually laid last time around - the wood got confiscated, though, and never returned.

The case from the previous raid is still ongoing.

From the DOJ filing in the previous raid:

"Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood."

...and a seized email from Gibson servers show they likely knew about it:

"Mr. [Roger] Thunam on the other hand should now be able to supply Nagel with all the rosewood and ebony for the grey market"
 
From what I've read about Lacey act on some legal/attorney blog.

It's similar to owning a car that was stolen. Even if the original owner went through the right channels to obtain it it's still stolen property and can be confiscated. Also that there is no constitutional right to import goods it's a privilege subject to taxes, duties, fees.

Again from the additional reading this is why Gibson doesn't need to be charged with a crime and needs to prove that what they have imported was done so legally. I'm not passing judgement or saying Gibson did or didn't do what they claim. Just looking to get a better picture of the issue.

I'm not an attorney and what I was reading is a blog so I'm not sure it's all that reliable but thought I'd pass it on.
 
Jatoba is not cherry; not even close!

It is also not endangered- again, not even close!

Endiandra globosa is not "walnut"- it's "black walnut"- a total misnomer, anyway.

If you had used the species names, or even taken the time to type the word "black", I would have understood the references (at least the "walnut" one). Instead you used the common vernacular for common trees in the U.S.- to what end I'm not sure. Maybe it was just laziness.

Let's not forget 2000 fellow countrymen of yours newly laid-off by another short-sighted, politically motivated imperial edict. I happen to think they're more important than any tree, but I've noticed that most environmentalists seem to be pretty "down" on their fellow humans (well, at least the ones who too-closely resemble the image in the mirror). Your sacrifice (?) is playing a goofy-looking instrument; their sacrifice is losing their livelihood. How you thought you could bootstrap your belief system on the misery of others in a public forum and somehow avoid a political discussion is beyond me.



Then you need to wean yourself from semantic sleight-of-hand (or sloppiness) like I referred to in the beginning of this post. I get too strong of a BS odor from it. The very title of this thread comes off as scolding, which nobody wants to hear and you don't have any sort of moral standing to do, anyway. The language of your previous two threads was much more neutral and didn't involve a link to a news story which is obviously very emotional and dramatic (and political) in nature. Reviving one of those threads, or starting a new one with the same premise would have been a better way to go. Standing at the scene of a tragedy and saying "See? I told you so!" is a good way to get punched in the face, and for no good reason. "In light of the Gibson Raid", I want to trade in my basses for a Gibson guitar, and maybe put another on a credit card;) how's that?



So Austrailia, India and Brazil are "third world nations"? Please. Let's remember that no Gibson employees cut down any of these trees. You can take your righteous indignation straight into the rainforest, to the guys who are doing the cutting. Maybe they'll do you the signal honor of laughing in your face before shooting you (OTOH, you'll emit less CO2). The local authorities there, who subsist on the bribes, know better. The local authorities here, who subsist on tax dollars and seizures, DON'T know any better, they just follow orders.

Listen, dude, I obviously don't share alot of your views, but I do own a non-wood instrument (which I love) and recycle wood in my own projects whenever possible. I've always wondered why nobody uses american Cherry in basses. I've always enjoyed working with it (love that smell!) and it looks killer. Until I try it myself I'll just have to assume there's a good reason for not using it that I just haven't discovered yet:).

And despite my comment about buying some Gibson guitars, I also realize that it would be almost impossible to support a local retailer if I did so. (yes, that is important to me):( If this (or anything else) indeed spells the end of the company, they might wish they had treated their smaller vendors more fairly instead of putting all their eggs in the Guitar Center/ Musicians Friend basket.:scowl:


It seems you intend to make this personal for some reason....instead of keeping on topic which put as simply as i can put it...

In light of the raid on Gibson should we as consumers be looking for alternatives to (Ebony, Rosewood etc.) or should the industry be looking for suitable replacements for particular woods....I wanted to know if anybody thought in these terms, or considered such a thing when purchasing new..


i Revived a couple older threads which basically stated the same intent....with the recent events of the past couple weeks I thought it may be relevant once again...

(My ex wife was with me at a Namm show about three years ago and we passed the Traben booth..I thought they were a bit ugly but was curious about what i had been reading concerning their Sonic Art Bridges so i tried one.....after doing some research i discovered the were mostly manufactured from Royal Paulownia which again after doing research decided it was an added bonus for purchasing after finding out so much about this amazing family of trees...so i did...after which i generated the original post to see if this type of decision influenced anyone else)

was I sloppy and or lazy in my earlier posts...well yes after a fashion....but I'll tell you why....I have a biological sciences degree....and i tend to be scolded on a daily basis for talking down to people (or so people tell me), so as a result i tend to take the shortest and or easiest route (Most people are familiar with Cherry and Walnut it saved time and people flocking to google to see what i was typing about)

It's the same as me saying, "Wow did you see the size of that Elaphe obsoleta linheimeri?" and i get the deer in the headlights look....Huh? when it's easier to say, Wow did you see the size of that chicken snake?" which the accepted common venacular...

It's true Jatoba is not in the same family as the Cherry tree (P runus) but if you bother to check any availbale lumber lists anywhere you will see it listed as Brazilian Cherry (and it's all about common recognition in the long run)

according to the Most recent Numbers posted by the Rainforest Action Network it has been over logged for the flooring industry and is on their list of threatened species..

as for multi-national corporation pillaging 3rd world nations for their resources that comment did not come from me that was Loveandbass....I called them emerging and developing countries

and while I agree with you on some points....the loss of Jobs in this economy is terrible...

I was trying to get away form the political nuances of some of the posts here and also trying to get away from Gibson being guilty or not guilty...

no one especially me was preaching or saying I told you so...never my intention

I simply wanted to know how people felt about alternatives..

i quoted the the article simply because i was responding to Rockmusician's comment that, and i quote (I seriously doubt that people who buy Gibsons will be treated as criminals.) the article gave an example to the contrary as did TBGFRED later in the thread...

Is my Traben Goofy looking as you so stated? possibly but it has never been about looks for me it's always been about feel and sound.....and to my hands and ears my bass is great (to each his own)

and as for my views and belief system? You read a few comments and think you have me pegged? Well i may lean to the left when it comes to animals and the environment (on some issues) I am actually quite the fiscal conservative and have always voted G.O.P all of my adult life..(again not important)

my views are not important in the context of this thread and neither are any of the other personal points you brought forward...

and again I state the original intent of my post

should we be looking to alternatives?

can we keep this non-personal and non-political please

as I would really like to see where it goes
 
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