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Double Bass In the Mode

#61
This is a pretty non-intuitive way to learn the modes, rather:

I Ionian
II Dorian
III Phrygian
IV Lydian
V Mixolydian
VI Aeolian
VII Locrian

Then, when you encounter something like (D Dorian), D is the second note of the C scale, so you have the C scale from D to D. Down and simple, dig?
 
#62
That's a relative approach. I wouldn't say one is better over another. For me, learning them from a parallel approach was more intuitive... but that's just me, different people learn things differently. When I encounter, say D Lydian, my mind and fingers automatically know the IV is going to be raised... I don't need to worry about knowing what key I am in and where I am starting from within that scale.

But like I said, that works for me. May not work for others. And my approach to it in this manner may be influenced by my studies in Indian music (which I am tempted to explain how, but don't want to get off topic).
 
#63
Nypiano, you are definitly on to somethng there with Mozart and the apple. I wouldn't blame Mozart though he was just a 5 year old when he wrote twinkle twinkle. As for redundant, I suggest you get a concise dictionary and discover that it means more than just 'needless usage of words'. But was it really refering to the composer? I thought you said, or at least implied that you read the post carefully.

I did read your post carefully. And I wouldn't start "digging" there into English and usage because that will only get you in deeper BS for you to dig out of. Consulting the definition of redundant aside from the pomposity of the suggestion is also evasive and irrelevant in this case. You used it to refer to “musical excursions” in one post and then claimed you were using the word redundant to refer to “the belief.." What it really means is you are in the habit of recasting your own words in a completely different statement to cover your tracks which carries no credibility. Also I repeat that the use of the word redundant to characterize belief—in this case “diatonic bias” ( the essential idea behind the messy relative clause you used to describe “the belief that, etc..”) in the sentence you used it in does not make a scintilla of sense and I challenge you to explain succinctly how it does. I stick to this small piece of the puzzle, use of language because I think the mechanism of self awareness and denial at play is symptomatic of some of your larger issues of vainglory you’re showing us now-that is your delusions of you being the misunderstood messenger and us the Philistines.
 
#64
MikeBarber said:
Correct.

.........
Lydian: C D E F# G A B C
Ionian: C D E F G A B C
Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C
Aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C​

and also
Locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C ​

But, do you notice a pattern? Notice the progression of raising and lowering degrees from mode to mode? Once I wrapped my head around that relation, I came to know modes like the back of my hand. ;)
Click to expand...


The method you described is also used in Ed Roseman's book. He describes your list as "modes from brightest to darkest".
 
#65
MIKE OF SEVILLE said:
Correct.

The way I learned to distinguish modes was the "LIMDAP system" (I don't know if this is a real system, just what I nicknamed it. I extended it it to LIMDAPL -- rhymes with "Snapple" -- the reason for I will explain in a moment). This was from my theory class in college.

The LIMDAP refers to an order of modes: Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian (add Locrian for LIMDAPL).

The idea is a logical movement left-to-right (but we'll go up-down due to formating on the web) based on raising and lowering of degrees. Taking a parallel approach (all with C as tonic):

Lydian: C D E F# G A B C
Ionian: C D E F G A B C
Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C
Aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C​

and also
Locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C ​

The reason they left Locrian out was because, according to my teacher, Locrian can't be used because of its diminished 5th... it's too unstable, or some nonesense like that. Horse-hockey as far as I'm concerned.

But, do you notice a pattern? Notice the progression of raising and lowering degrees from mode to mode? Once I wrapped my head around that relation, I came to know modes like the back of my hand. ;)
Click to expand...

Excellent post. I teach this method along with several others here at the U., and I find it works very well for most people, as they find the progression very logical. Like you, I see no reason to exclude Locrian from the reindeer games. It also sometimes helps to make up bizarre sentences to help remember the anagrams. My favorite sentence on this topic from a student this semester: Limeys In Malaysia Don't Always Play Legato. :)

Another way to classify modes from a "hearing/identifying" standpoint that many students find helpful is an offshoot of the above method:

"Major" modes = Limeys In Malaysia

"Minor" Modes = Don't Always

"b2" Modes = Play Legato

Students seem to feel that these three categories help them classify the modes they're hearing very quickly, enabling them to mentally "cross out" the other possibilities. From there, they can listen more closely for specific details.
 
#66
Chris Fitzgerald said:
It also sometimes helps to make up bizarre sentences to help remember the anagrams. My favorite sentence on this topic from a student this semester: Limeys In Malaysia Don't Always Play Legato. :)
Click to expand...


As they say in the Guiness commercials... brilliant!

I was trying to think of something, but best I could do was rhym with Snapple. I like your sentence because it has "Limeys" and "Legato" in it... very fun words. :D
 
#67
On two topics concerning the 'rote' memorization I'm curious:

When a tune is screaming by and you

A) see X phry., is it just a quick to say to yourself (HWWW, etc) or (Flat 2, flat 3, normal 4, normal 5 -- oh, and major three as well...), or (X, 3rd mode of Y. Major 3rd can be used)?

B) Bass specific, but would apply to piano and strings as well (mebbe more): How do you resolve the fingerings without learning a seprate set of fingerings on the bass for every scale/mode out there. Learning your modes as degree of the scale also gives you the fingerings for all of your modes on your fiddle.
 
#68
Ray Parker said:
When a tune is screaming by and you

A) see X phry., is it just a quick to say to yourself (HWWW, etc) or (Flat 2, flat 3, normal 4, normal 5 -- oh, and major three as well...), or (X, 3rd mode of Y. Major 3rd can be used)?
Click to expand...

Having internalised the modes, I no longer need to think about them. If I see X phrygian, I react in X phrygian. I have gotten past the point of having to quickly say to myself "phyrgian = HWWW/Flat 2, flat 3, normal 4, normal 5..." Well, with the aformentioned modes atleast. I am still working on the melodic minor modes.

But like I said, this is a method that works for me. This way was the most intuitive and most conducive to internalisation. And I would agree that it is important to know how each mode relates to one another.

Ray Parker said:
How do you resolve the fingerings without learning a seprate set of fingerings on the bass for every scale/mode out there. Learning your modes as degree of the scale also gives you the fingerings for all of your modes on your fiddle.
Click to expand...

I don't use just one set of fingerings for each mode. It depends on where I am and where I want to go.


As a matter of personal preference, I like to look at modes as seperate and unique scales as well as parts of a larger whole. It's like being a "details man" and a "big picture man" both at the same time (after all, the big picture is made of small details). And, again, this may be influenced by my study of Indian music, where they don't have modes and scales based on fixed notes (A, B, C, D, etc) but Thaats based on the Indian Sargam (Indian notation system more akin to the Western Solfa). Rather than notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G they have (in abreviated form) Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Da, Ni. Sa is always the root, but Sa may be the equivellant of C, C#, D or anywhere else or in between. The Sa is determined by the solo performer (usually sitar or vocalist).

OK, I'm getting off topic... but I hope you found it interesting.
 
#69
It is, and I can see most of it. The practicle issue (fingering) and how it relates to our instrument bothers me a bit, as you have to be careful with fingerings (see The Exorcises to see where I'm coming from on this) or you can render the bass pretty unplayable with a couple of small, wrong moves.

The other thing that raises concern, both on paper and because I've run into seasoned, older players that are crippled by this, is that the rote method is inherently inflexible when it comes to what you might call 'instant indexing' -- for example, putting things in different keys at the drop of a hat. These older players to whom I refer, spend a lot more time 'getting to know' each tune that is in their repetoire, and then are at a loss to put it in another key as the weight of the rote memorization is heavy.
 
#70
Although I can appreciate the technical concerns faced by bassists involving fingering modes and such, I'm having trouble figuring out how this discussion of modes is getting anywhere into the realm of real music and how this has practical applications to improvising, composing and teaching. The most promising things so far (before the offramp of the thread "down under") were 1-5s midi files which seemed interesting sonic experiments because it seemed like he was trying to apply it to rudimentary composition. I was somehow reminded of two tunes with modal attributes in particular--Flamenco Sketches and Fran Dance. And also some of the pantonal music of Stravinsky.

For example. I never teach modes to students. I know them but don’t use them much. Mostly because when we learn tunes—they often sound lousy when applied in a literal fashion ie the “1-7” modes approach—for the 7 “expected” chords of Fmajor. For example a student has asked “what mode do I play for the D-7 chord on The Way You Look Tonight in F?” My eyes kind of glaze over because I’m not really thinking modes and it’s rare that I would see the point in playing D Aeolian strictly in this case. A aeolin sounds great and right on Milestones or G phrygian on Search for Peace but this is the most appropriate use of modes. As logical sound spaces or pedal type changes where it builds an interesting tension

More often then not tunes use subs whereby you employ a better scale solution to get to the existing harmony. For example using G harmonic minor over D7 to get to your II chord on G-7. Then on G minor you could play dorian but you may not.

Though some of you guys seem to both have learned modes and teach them. What do you think is the ultimate value in your experiences? To walking? Improvising? Or to learn them just for the eventual purpose of musing on them on a potential composition?. I think the latter perhaps.
 
#71
nypiano said:
Though some of you guys seem to both have learned modes and teach them. What do you think is the ultimate value in your experiences? To walking? Improvising? Or to learn them just for the eventual purpose of musing on them on a potential composition?. I think the latter perhaps.
Click to expand...

The most useful thing I've learned about modes is that they're not really useful most of the time - but like so many things, I had to go through the work of learning them to come to that realization. I teach them partly because it's part of my job, and partly because I think that it might be useful for my students to have the oportunity to come to the same type of conclusions that I have through their own direct experience. Lessons learned that way always seem to sink in so much better. :)

Other than that, the most useful thing I've learned about them is they are a great illustration of how the "color" of an entire tonality can change by simply changing a few notes rather than thinking of an entirely different "scale" or "tonality"...and from this, I have learned that it's perhaps best to reduce my concern with pitch matters down to the process of hearing and executing melodic intervallic distances in midstream rather than preconceiving a bunch of chord scales and plugging them in where they seem to fit.
 
#74
I can't believe you guys were arguing about modes...I always thought music theory was made to keep young musicians out of the street and out of trouble with the law.
But some useful information for whoever was the person asking the question...maybe after you play the melody through the different modes to hear the differences you might also want to transpose a whole simple peice (for example twinkle twinkle little stars) for piano or maybe write it out and make some of your friends play the different voices with the modes to not only hear a melody with the modes but the harmony...take it one step further.
 
#75
nypiano said:
A aeolin sounds great and right on Milestones or G phrygian on Search for Peace but this is the most appropriate use of modes. As logical sound spaces or pedal type changes where it builds an interesting tension
Click to expand...

I played a nice gentle tune by Airto Moereira - which was called "The Wind" - but in Brazilian/Portugese? - and this was based on Aeolian mode throughout - solos were open on this mode - but then it had changes for the head out.

I thought this was very appropriate as the Aeolian Harp was said to have been the instrument of Aeolus, the Greek god of the wind and this is the derivation of the term/name. :)
 
#76
Ray Parker said:
Pretty cool, eh? Did you get a chance to do parallel modes? (C Ionian, C Dorian, etc.)
Click to expand...

The 2 midi files in the attachment are the C-Parallel modes for This Old Man. The file names indicate the order the mode are played. LIMDAPL is ordered from "bright to dark".

The Mixolydian mode sounds the same as Ionian, because there is no 7 note in the song to flat.

I like this demo better than the one in post #3 since the song remains in the same tone range rather than shifting up.

Any suggestion for a simple familiar song that uses all notes in Cmajor?
 

Attachments

#77
Ray Parker said:
For me it's understanding the root harmony of a key (ear and brain) and its permutations, mainly. Plus 'knowing the rules' so that you understand what's really happening when they're being broken.
Click to expand...

So I guess we're talking about application of modes to diatonic harmony--as if to say--here's the terrain from a melodic point of view which you start with. Work from there. And feel free to deviate once you learn which scales or which chromatic adds work better . Which in the end for a player who develops a decent melodic sense, is nearly all the time. Chris seems to be saying that to a large degree. The study of modes as sound canvasses seem to have the most fruitful possibilities from a musical point of view. I also feel that modes give you little to understand harmony. Diatonic harmony is about function and the study of motion to and from the key and modes are static.

I guess the problem I have is from pedagogue point of view is what is the most useful stuff to learn that has direct application and will result in less eschewing of inferior melodic lines? For example in the early stages when you give students modes or scales to work on, they try to use them verbatim and they become part of the garbage you have to tell them to get rid of. So in a nutshell, if I tell them make sure to practice all the modes in this key or that key, I almost feel guilty for misprogramming them. The fingers will tend to gravitate to gobbledygook if you program gobbledygook. And if you try to make the modes more musical you end up having to do adds or chromatics that make them more musical--which in the end is almost tapping into the real musicians process--the intuitive. For example the unschooled types who can play beautiful melodic lines that sometimes coincide with modes but often play something different or even avoid notes that sound right. I agree that fingering calistenics are important but at the same time the whole point of improvising is to make good composition which has very little to do with running all your modes.

I guess in a nutshell this is the "scale or not to scale" question. It's still debated among gifted musicians-some claim it's necessary. Others claim practicing pieces which use (more or less)the scales is better. I'm still on the fence
 
#78
Well, I guess that the example that explains my persective and adresses yours at the same time would be the over-laying of a minor II-V over a major II-V.

For instance, with a line playing G-7(b5) C7(b9) Fmaj7 over G-7 C7 F. for the II chords, having F (G) Dorian and Ab (G) Locrian firmly understood gives you the choice of more and less dissonant notes to choose and you know instantly which are going to be stronger sounding than the other. Notes that the scales (and chords) have in common will be more consonant and the other will be more sizzle-y. Also, knowing the sounds (and the modes) you know that Db Lydian (Db Maj 7 #11) has a particular sound and with some experience (and taste) you learn how to play 'tricks' to take a line to a whole 'nuther place for a while.

These ideas are also applicable to the C7 as well, which can also obviously get you into some Fmelodic minor stuff (usable over the II as well) as well as understanding where a C# diminished scale also functions as a V chord idea leading to F.

By no means a complete example, but see where I'm coming from? If you have all of the modes in your back pocket, you (with a lot of experience and taste) can whip these things out a will -- in any key -- and 'have at'.
 
#79
Ray Parker said:
By no means a complete example, but see where I'm coming from? If you have all of the modes in your back pocket, you (with a lot of experience and taste) can whip these things out a will -- in any key -- and 'have at'.
Click to expand...

Yes I do see where you are coming from in that you are talking about picking a different mode on the same root (ie Gdorian vs. Glocrian) depending on which color you want. But I would say the "taste" aspect you talk about comes from your sense of harmony. You pick the scales knowing which choices are right based on the harmony you wish to convey. Plus you mentioned the dominant scales which fall out of the "big 7" which again shows that phrasing over typical jazz tunes or standards gets out of those 7 modes real fast.

For example I view what you are discussing as "modal borrowing" That is thinking in Fmajor or Fminor and interchanging them. You may disagree. The only reason why I feel like the distinction is important is that your governing principle--light/dark (or sizzly as you mention) is more towards the harmonic principle (overall key color major vs. minor) rather than the modal--"try this one out" approach. Only in that certain mode choices made will rendered superfluous if the implied harmony is not consistent with regard to the flow of the chords and the harmony.

In this light I view the dominant scales as either:
minor cadence sounding, major cadence sounding or coloristic
For example the altered dominant (MMin 7th mode) has a slightly more cadential feeling to it than half whole diminished . Although they contain nearly the same notes and create tension, the hW dim is more neutral because it contains both a flat 9,#9(minorish) and a natural 13(majorish) and it's symmetrical which seems to lend itself to elaboration and repetition ad nauseum to detail the symmetry. Whole tone is similar that way. anyway blah blah

In a nutshell I think what I am talking about is the underlying "what" governing the "when" in mode choices. Failing to impart the mindset and only the scales is the danger to the student--where they think you're withholding something. You have to deliver them both together to prevent them from wasting their time with choices that will never be used.
 
#80
I think I'm with you, generally. My only real point, I guess, is knowing the basic structure well enough that you understand why all the different things that you do in 'real' practice work. In other words, understanding what is consonant and otherwise and why. And then, having the numbers down cold so that putting anything in any key is a non-issue.

As far as it applies to the bass, though, I really believe that you will benefit greatly from my approach.

I'll also admit that my harmonic approach has a lot to do with the physicality of the instrument. I have a dear friend who plays vibraphone and his way of looking at this stuff is much more like the other method as his instrument is very visual and not tied to 'fingerings' :)

I guess, in the end, whatever gets you all of the information in your ears AND under your fingers is what is best.
 

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