I'm most disappointed - when I saw this thread and that it mentioned Bluegrass in the same breath as modes, I expected it to be full of jokes by Ed.....
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Double Bass In the Mode
- Thread starter iPlay15151515
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Tell me the function of key, other than to provide a form of shorthand for score reading. There really is none, key is one of the most redundant things in western tonal music. All it does is save time in reading and in writing. Until you come to a piece of music that constantly changes key or has a scale that has different degrees in one register than in another, and yes such things do exist. Everything in western tonal music revolves around the developent of the piano, and what was perceived to be the most consonant sounding scale. Hence why we have white keys and black keys. Ever notice that you don't have white and black keys on your bass? Just twelve evenly tempered notes in an octave. This is because the major scale has no more importance by default than any other scale. It doesn't just magically manifest itself when you play an instrument that doesn't have it set out in front of you. The only reason it does on the piano is because it was designed to accomodate the Major scale in the 'key' of C. The major scale didn't evolve into any level of importance. It was given its 'importance' from the beginning. Also bare in mind that in western society we are pretty much brainwashed into relating to the major scale by default. What is the first thing you hear as a child? "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star"
Also consider this. It is the Lydian Dominant scale that manifests itself in the overtone series. Which isn't even a diatonic scale or 'mode'. The reason we think the Major scale is so important is because we are told it is and conditioned to recognise it aesthetically. Even if we stick with the premise that there are 12 evenly tempered tones there are still thosands of scales that can be developed. How can one be given importance over all the rest?
As for mike's comment about what the double bass was deveolped for I would point out that any fretless instument is microtonal and as such can move beyond the constraints of a 12 tone chromatic system. I mean you can say that sitar was not developed to play western music. It doesn't mean it can't and hasn't been used in that context. And if you play a fretless electric bass the same applies.
On another topic. What is in my profile has no baring on what I am saying here. I present my opinion for what it is. You can take it or leave it.
Also consider this. It is the Lydian Dominant scale that manifests itself in the overtone series. Which isn't even a diatonic scale or 'mode'. The reason we think the Major scale is so important is because we are told it is and conditioned to recognise it aesthetically. Even if we stick with the premise that there are 12 evenly tempered tones there are still thosands of scales that can be developed. How can one be given importance over all the rest?
As for mike's comment about what the double bass was deveolped for I would point out that any fretless instument is microtonal and as such can move beyond the constraints of a 12 tone chromatic system. I mean you can say that sitar was not developed to play western music. It doesn't mean it can't and hasn't been used in that context. And if you play a fretless electric bass the same applies.
On another topic. What is in my profile has no baring on what I am saying here. I present my opinion for what it is. You can take it or leave it.
OK, man, you win. Let's play "Misty." You start wherever you like and I'll do the same; let's see what happens.nothinggod said:
Point being, you're mistaking the recipe for the dish. Musical notation is a visual representation of an aural phenomenon. Anything that helps musicians to communicate about the mechanics so that we can move onto the musical substance has functional value. You are correct that there are many possible representational systems other than five thin lines, some pound signs and italic b's. But practically speaking, for me to communicate my musical ideas (limited as they may be by fleeting references to 12-tone equal-tempered tonalities) I employ the existing system as a tool. Needless to say, use any system you like, hombre!
Are you thinking about the Lydian major scale? George Russell wrote an influential book about it. Lydian dominant yields a major I, no natural IV and a minor V, which is why not too much music employs it, but I'm sure in the right hands it could be interesting.NG said:
Please, it's a family site -- no baring aloud. Sir or madam, on the Double Bass Bulletin Board (as with so many places online) the only coin one can possess is credibility. Your profile tends to enhance your credibility by reflecting the background which has led you to your conclusions. Completing your profile also reflects a modest level of respect for all the other posters on the Bulletin Board: In desiring to provide appropriate responses to your posts, some might take extra time to point something out to a younger student that they might assume a 30-year-vet knows. Of course, the choice is yours. All I can say is that, like many here, I communicate for a living and I never assume that the sheer force of my ideas alone will carry the day for me.NG said:
In any event, welcome to the Board and please, speak your piece!
Firstly, I think that it is the other way around. That everyone else is mistaking the recipe for the dish. The dish is more interesting when you stop thinking you can only use 5 ingredients though. I am not refuting that musical score is tool by any means, however, just pointing out that there are some redundancies. And what I am talking about is not that there is a limitation with the 12 tone system but that there is a system that clings to the idea that the Major Scale is king and all other scales must respond to it. My assertion is that the Major Scale is there as a default that we can compare the positonal values of certain degrees to the tonal centre. For example we know when we see the term b3 we know that it refers to a note that is an interval of 3 semitones from the tonic because we can take the position of the Major 3rd (4 semitones from the tonic) and reposition it one semitone flat. Giving it significance above other scales for any other reason is just clinging to conditioning.
Secondly I am refering to Lydian Dominant as the scale with the degrees {1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7}, Which is essentially a Lydain scale other than that it has a flat 7th degree. Given that it has a b7 a major 5th and a major 3rd degree, we can see that the dominant tetrachord is formed within the scale, hence it can be called Lydian Dominant. I have no idea what a Lydian Major is, as the Lydian scale itself has a Major triad. I am not realy making any reference to George Russell directly here, though. As to which triads it yeilds, why people do and don't employ them really goes back to what they are conditioned to expect.
And lastly what my credentials and such are are really of no significance. As I said you can take or leave what I say. If you are in doubt then take it upon yourself to read into it.
By the way it's nice to know I can always have 'typos' corrected
Secondly I am refering to Lydian Dominant as the scale with the degrees {1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7}, Which is essentially a Lydain scale other than that it has a flat 7th degree. Given that it has a b7 a major 5th and a major 3rd degree, we can see that the dominant tetrachord is formed within the scale, hence it can be called Lydian Dominant. I have no idea what a Lydian Major is, as the Lydian scale itself has a Major triad. I am not realy making any reference to George Russell directly here, though. As to which triads it yeilds, why people do and don't employ them really goes back to what they are conditioned to expect.
And lastly what my credentials and such are are really of no significance. As I said you can take or leave what I say. If you are in doubt then take it upon yourself to read into it.
By the way it's nice to know I can always have 'typos' corrected
You're precious. I suppose that 'clave' (as in central, south, and north Amercian music) and its ancestors in West Africa are all pretentious crap as well -- in your opinion?
{Edited by moderator} That you are so quick to throw out the work of uncounted genius minds (and ears) over uncountable collective millinea simply strikes me as comical.
Just my opinion. And we all have one, eh?
{Edited by moderator} That you are so quick to throw out the work of uncounted genius minds (and ears) over uncountable collective millinea simply strikes me as comical.
Just my opinion. And we all have one, eh?
That's ironic Ray, especcially given that you are the one that thinks the major scale is the be all and end all of tonality. My sources of reference are people like Bartok, Stravinsky, Messiaen, Schoenberg, Zorn not to mention all the other music I have listened to. So don't give me this outcome based education crap. {Edited by moderator.}
Furthermore, clave has nothing to do with tonality. Why you would bring it up is well beyond me. {Edited by moderator.} Do you even realise that modes are not exclusive to the major scale? Do you even realise that any group of notes can have relative modulations? Do you even realise that every time you play a major scale you are in essence playing all of the relative modes at the same time? Did you pay any attention at all to the 20th century? Or do you just sit around and try to look ecclectic when you listen to Mozart's redundant excursions up and down the major scale and think that that is the be all and end all of tonal theory. I am definitly not the first person to realise that there are more scales to be made out of 12 tones than ones that go tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. And how utterly ironic that you bring african music into it while defending the absolute heiracy of the major scale. Furthermore, Ray, where did I say 'pretentious crap'?
{Edited by moderator}
Furthermore, clave has nothing to do with tonality. Why you would bring it up is well beyond me. {Edited by moderator.} Do you even realise that modes are not exclusive to the major scale? Do you even realise that any group of notes can have relative modulations? Do you even realise that every time you play a major scale you are in essence playing all of the relative modes at the same time? Did you pay any attention at all to the 20th century? Or do you just sit around and try to look ecclectic when you listen to Mozart's redundant excursions up and down the major scale and think that that is the be all and end all of tonal theory. I am definitly not the first person to realise that there are more scales to be made out of 12 tones than ones that go tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. And how utterly ironic that you bring african music into it while defending the absolute heiracy of the major scale. Furthermore, Ray, where did I say 'pretentious crap'?
{Edited by moderator}
Typical . . . {edited by moderator} response Ray . . . {edited by moderator}. My work has nothing to do with anything I have said. Just go stick your head back in the sand with the other jazz wankers that think comping ii V I is the be all and end all of intellectual composition. It's ok I understand you don't get it.
Funny, as I read this, I just happened to be listening to Beethoven 4, and the phrase 'redundant excursions' was far far from my mind
(yes, I realize that this was not directly said about old Ludwig's work, but I just assume that if Mozart is redundant, then Beethoven must be.....only slightly less boring?)
My friend, there is infinite beauty in simplicity......
(yes, I realize that this was not directly said about old Ludwig's work, but I just assume that if Mozart is redundant, then Beethoven must be.....only slightly less boring?)
My friend, there is infinite beauty in simplicity......
Your assumption is wrong. Actually I should ellaborate. It's really not whether Mozart himself was redundant, rather that the belief that the major scale and diatonic system is the centre of all music is redundant. I mean, who believes the earth is the centre of the universe anymore? Lucky we grew up past that idioitic assumption, isn't it?
NothingGood, you have some serious problems, kid. Thank goodness for that 'ignore' button.
Signing off.
Signing off.
Once again, how ironic. {Edited by moderator}
This is exactly why I don't feel the need to tell any of you anything about myself. If I have to prove myself in comparison to Ray here . . . {edited by moderator} Ray just sticks by the assumption that if it was good enough 500 years ago it's good enough today . . .
{edited by moderator}
This is exactly why I don't feel the need to tell any of you anything about myself. If I have to prove myself in comparison to Ray here . . . {edited by moderator} Ray just sticks by the assumption that if it was good enough 500 years ago it's good enough today . . .
{edited by moderator}
Just so the conversation doesn't seem quite so stilted to the reader who doesn't know what's going on or who may not know the players in this little dustup:
Ray Parker is well-known around here. You have to be a complete newbie not to be aware of Ray. If you've taken the trouble to get to know him through his contributions and through his playing, you'll know he's one of the most seasoned vets we have here, he's very willing to share his expertise, and he has a practical approach to things.
nothinggod is a question mark who turned up out of nowhere to say a bunch of stuff about modes. Did you understand any of it? Neither did I, and I've only been hanging around and studying music for, oh, thirty years.
nothinggod, I gotta say it: you come across as a raver. Until you learn to connect your words with the real world, you will always come across as a raver.
Ray Parker is well-known around here. You have to be a complete newbie not to be aware of Ray. If you've taken the trouble to get to know him through his contributions and through his playing, you'll know he's one of the most seasoned vets we have here, he's very willing to share his expertise, and he has a practical approach to things.
nothinggod is a question mark who turned up out of nowhere to say a bunch of stuff about modes. Did you understand any of it? Neither did I, and I've only been hanging around and studying music for, oh, thirty years.
nothinggod, I gotta say it: you come across as a raver. Until you learn to connect your words with the real world, you will always come across as a raver.
nothinggod said:
I think you've got much to say, though subtlety is not your strong point. The ionian scale is just another sub-classification of the chromatic scale.
The major scale has a degree of importance because Rameau's theories and those from whom he learned are still taught in U.S school systems via Piston and others, unfortunately without fair time given to Hindemith's teachings!
Rameau substantiated a scale by using ascending tertian harmonies. He made a huge assumption that it just 'is.'
Hindemith, beside being one of the major 20th century composers, may well be the greatest theorist of that time.
Hindemith explains from where each note of the chromatic scale comes and proves it beyond dispute.
Hindemith chose Parker and Mingus to study with him at Yale when Hindemith taught there, but Yale would not allow them in. It's probably fortunate that most of the major improvisors of the jazz movement were not 'formally' trained.
The lydian dominant is just the melodic minor scale starting on the four.
The original question is how one that is new to the concept of modes (of the major scale) might apply this new color on his pallette to bluegrass music, no?
Getting back to that, 151515, having the scale organized modally will help put a lot of 'right' notes under your fingers for whatever chord you're playing in a given key. From those right notes, you have a quick index toward 'good' notes. Getting the sounds, or the nature, of the different modes in your ear let you start hearing chords (vertical in construction) in a linear fashion -- meaning that, for instance, you're playing a G7 in the key of C your ear has a fundamental grasp of what is happening in that you have a different set of way-inside notes (chord tones) and what they sound like, what I like to think of as 'bright' notes, which would be (roughly) the major pentatonic notes around that chord (which are different from the MP notes of the key) and the big 'ol dissonant 4th (on this chord, anyhow), which is a powerful color and nifty if applied 'right'.
This is, although not clearly, what my 'This Old man' bit was about up above. I haven't listened to all of your MIDI files, but looking back up there, I didn't mention that the neatest exercise with that is to play such a melody in parrallel -- meaning play the melody in C Ionian, then C Dorian, etc. This really clearly demonstrates the different colors that the modes have.
Off to the gig.
Getting back to that, 151515, having the scale organized modally will help put a lot of 'right' notes under your fingers for whatever chord you're playing in a given key. From those right notes, you have a quick index toward 'good' notes. Getting the sounds, or the nature, of the different modes in your ear let you start hearing chords (vertical in construction) in a linear fashion -- meaning that, for instance, you're playing a G7 in the key of C your ear has a fundamental grasp of what is happening in that you have a different set of way-inside notes (chord tones) and what they sound like, what I like to think of as 'bright' notes, which would be (roughly) the major pentatonic notes around that chord (which are different from the MP notes of the key) and the big 'ol dissonant 4th (on this chord, anyhow), which is a powerful color and nifty if applied 'right'.
This is, although not clearly, what my 'This Old man' bit was about up above. I haven't listened to all of your MIDI files, but looking back up there, I didn't mention that the neatest exercise with that is to play such a melody in parrallel -- meaning play the melody in C Ionian, then C Dorian, etc. This really clearly demonstrates the different colors that the modes have.
Off to the gig.
