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Instrument cable help...

#61
Pardon if this has been previously covered...

What happens to the signal after it leaves the 'high quality' cable and enters a preamp/amp? What kind of wire is used in those black boxes? How about the traces on the PCB? Any degradation there compared to the super cord?
Or, ever open up an effects pedal? What kind of wire do you see? Is it pretty much 22 gauge run of the mill wire?
Or we can get even closer to the source. What kind of wire is used in pretty much every guitar from pickups to the output jacks?

I find it rather difficult to put any faith in these high-end cables when much of the rest of the signal chain does not 'measure up.'
 
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#62
You mean when I said I wrote down if I was hearing A, B or something other than A or B and then compared those notes with the notes of the guy running the test? And my A, B, or not A or B matched his? I've said this several times.

ABX methodology? Here's cable A--listen to it. Here's cable B--listen to it. Listen to 10 more examples, and identify if A, B, or not A or B. I've said this several times.

If I'm misusing a term, please don't be pedantic and say so.
 
#63
No, your criteria for concluding the difference. So far it sounds like just some uncontrolled comparisons with no actual criteria--no level of confidence, for one--for judging your statistics. If you're really up on double-blind testing you would know the importance of these, but I don't know, it just seems like a mystery to you.

You brought up ABX tests and kept telling us how you know all about them. So far you haven't described anything that resembles an ABX test, just a same-different test with apparently a lot more variables--A, B, C, D, and maybe more--than you can reliably control for. Look, I'm not trying to be mean or anything. It's just that the evidence to support your claim is just a mishmash.
 
#66
Superchicken, the problem here is that you're describing a sort of "folk science", like dowsing or herb potions, to someone whose education and career are founded in actual science. I think we can all agree that you heard what you heard; after all, that experience belongs only to you. But physics and the known science of signal transmission over wires do not agree with what you're saying. The reason Bob is poking at you to define your terms in re the ABX test is not to have a spitting match, but instead to find out exactly how far your tests were from his understanding of how a test like this should be done for results that would meet a scientific standard of validity.
 
#67
Here in the hills, we just undo a couple of coat hangers, twist em' together, stick one end in the geetar and the otheren in the amp and secure em' with "Kentucky chrome" (duck tape, which we make ourselves from real ducks). Any body gives us treble about it we proceed to determine their capacitance for the induction of our foot into their BUTTOCKS! Need more leash, add a hanger or two. Nuthin' screams PUNK more than duck tape.

(I figured some relief from the "wire wizards" was about due here.)
 
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#71
bongomania said:
Superchicken, the problem here is that you're describing a sort of "folk science", like dowsing or herb potions, to someone whose education and career are founded in actual science. I think we can all agree that you heard what you heard; after all, that experience belongs only to you. But physics and the known science of signal transmission over wires do not agree with what you're saying. The reason Bob is poking at you to define your terms in re the ABX test is not to have a spitting match, but instead to find out exactly how far your tests were from his understanding of how a test like this should be done for results that would meet a scientific standard of validity.
Click to expand...
Dowsing or herb potions? Because nothing like tree bark or mold could ever cure diseases?

"Science" isn't infallible.

It has been said elsewhere in the thread that changes in inductance, capacitance, and resistance change the sound of cables. I'm sure each cable I ever auditioned had different inductance, capacitance, and resistance properties, therefore they'd sound different.

Have you guys ever done a folk science cable test like I've described?

I'm a trained musician. I use my ears extensively and intensively to make music. I trust my ears. You can trust meters.
 
#73
Testing123 said:
Pardon if this has been previously covered...

What happens to the signal after it leaves the 'high quality' cable and enters a preamp/amp? What kind of wire is used in those black boxes? How about the traces on the PCB? Any degradation there compared to the super cord?
Or, ever open up an effects pedal? What kind of wire do you see? Is it pretty much 22 gauge run of the mill wire?
Or we can get even closer to the source. What kind of wire is used in pretty much every guitar from pickups to the output jacks?

I find it rather difficult to put any faith in these high-end cables when much of the rest of the signal chain does not 'measure up.'
Click to expand...

Great question.

I believe that there is some snake oil properties with some of the high-end instrument cables out there, but let the buyer beware....

To me, the most important aspect of instrument cables (mic cables, too) is the construction of the insulation and shielding. I believe coper is copper, but the materials of the insulation and the way the shield wires are implemented is important. These cables are "out in the wind", subject to spurious RF and EMF (a lot of "Fs" screw around with cables:roflmao:), not to mention how they are handled and stored and how they act as the age. Some endure better than others. And how a cable ages over a year or two should be part of the test criteria, but it would be difficult to implement a controlled set of tests for those cables.

To the point of your observation, those boxes (well, most of them that I'm aware of) are metal boxes and therefore somewhat shielded. The wiring inside those boxes and inside yer bass, as well as the solder traces on the PC boards inside the devices are subject to WAYYYY less strain and stress than the instrument cables we use to connect these devices. This goes back to the "copper is copper" belief and "run of the mill" wire is fine for inside-the-device use.

I've built pretty much all of my instrument cables, being able to buy Rapco cable and connectors (Neutrik, mostly) at cost through my former employer. I have several 20ft, a few 15- , 10-, and 5-fters, as well as a bunch of 1-fters a 6-inchers. The Rapco cable has been great, easy to coil, very little memory, and so far, good longevity. And nearly all of them are straight 1/4' plugs on one end and right-angle 1/4" plugs on the other.

By no means is this intended as an authoritative answer to the question you present. Just some observations.
 
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#74
superchicken_VI said:
Dowsing or herb potions? Because nothing like tree bark or mold could ever cure diseases?

"Science" isn't infallible.

It has been said elsewhere in the thread that changes in inductance, capacitance, and resistance change the sound of cables. I'm sure each cable I ever auditioned had different inductance, capacitance, and resistance properties, therefore they'd sound different.

Have you guys ever done a folk science cable test like I've described?

I'm a trained musician. I use my ears extensively and intensively to make music. I trust my ears. You can trust meters.
Click to expand...

To the point of the last sentence, and without engaging whatsoever in this discussion, the finest and most-sought-after mixing engineers out there use and trust a combination of ears and meters (How do I know this? I've worked alongside with several of them and each and every time, I learned more than I could ever write down). To eschew one or the other is ignoring all the tools available to our musical experience and selling ourselves short.
 
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#77
superchicken_VI said:
The best piano tuners also use meters to get the instrument in tune and then make the fine tuning by ear.

I'll agree that I wouldn't buy much Monster anymore because of their business practices. What they have done with Beats headphones is terrible.
Click to expand...

Exactly on the piano tuners (Been a tuner/tech on and off and on again for 40 years). Great point. Why didn't I think of that...
 
#78
superchicken_VI said:
The best piano tuners also use meters to get the instrument in tune and then make the fine tuning by ear.

I'll agree that I wouldn't buy much Monster anymore because of their business practices. What they have done with Beats headphones is terrible.
Click to expand...

Maybe voicing, but not tuning anymore. The meters do it. Good meters or software is still expensive though. So some might because they have cheap meters.
 
#79
superchicken_VI said:
It has been said elsewhere in the thread that changes in inductance, capacitance, and resistance change the sound of cables. I'm sure each cable I ever auditioned had different inductance, capacitance, and resistance properties, therefore they'd sound different.
Click to expand...

What is it about the cables' inductance, capacitance, and resistance, and about the electrical properties of the input and output they connect between, that would cause an audible difference?
 

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