Instrument cable help...

[ggunn]

I have two cables on my radar at the present time too...but my selections came down to the Analysis Pro Oval and the Zaolla cables....the Zaolla is pure silver 99.75% and the Analysis is a proprietary oval design in copper...

NEW INFO: Zaolla AND Analysis Plus cables , both have their ends soldered..

Spend your money however you like.

 

[Steve Dallman]

With a passive bass, cable capacitance will alter your bass's tone. High capacitance will lower the resonant peak of your pickup(s) and the treble rolloff imediately after the resonant peak.

If you use flatwounds, and/or roll your tone off, you will likely never hear it. You may like the effect of a high capacitance cable...like Monster.

If you use an active bass, the lower impedance output will isolate your bass from the cable capacitance.

As the amp tech at a music store, I handled cable repairs. We sold Monsters and many other brands. I repaired more Monsters than all other brands combined. The Monsters had pretty plugs but at that time, the lousy strain relief meant more breakdowns. I'll take a non-warranty cable with Switchcraft or Neutrik plugs than a lifetime warranty cord with something different.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

High quality cables don't necessarily cost a lot. ProCo falls into that category.

Magical "pure silver," "oxygen-free," "special geometry," etc., cables, as well as exotic power cords, are only superior at emptying wallets of the gullible.

Some of the cables I've bought have had lifetime warranties, but it really doesn't matter because although my cables almost never fail, I always have spares.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I'll take a non-warranty cable with Switchcraft or Neutrik plugs than a lifetime warranty cord with something different.

Yup!

 

[Spent]

Amazed to see people still believe the snake oil and buy Monster anything.

Agree. I have two Monster cables from years ago, got a good deal, didn't buy them for the name. They are the only cables that crapped out on my in 25+ years. And both went at the same time. I have a pair of Mogami that are just as old and still going strong. I actually like the Mogamis quite a bit, thinner than most and very rugged.

 

[Growlmonkee]

I use Mogami, but, I make my own, and the price to make them is pretty low. I like them because they are a good mix of durable, and comfortable, (they lay where you put them.). ProCo cables are good cables, I doubt there would be any sound difference in a live situation. As far as the cost... 10ft Mogami= $8, 2 Amphenol connectors=$4, so 12$ for a 10ft cable, with sturdy connectors.

 

[okcrum]

Check out this Sticky. Cable performance is actually measured rather than just being someone's 'opinion'.

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/instrument-cables-rated-and-compared-a-buyers-guide.811691/

Skip down for the summary if cable tech bores you.

This was a very good start. Everyone seems concerned with capacitance per foot of cable, but cable also has inductance per foot. All wires have inductance, coiled or not, just as they all have capacitance (to ground or other conductors). You'll almost never see inductance spec'ed for instrument cable; you have to measure it in most cases, or back calculate it from other measurements.

If you look at bongomania's spectral measurements above, you'll see that feeding the cables from a 50 ohm impedance makes them nearly flat for audio, as far as bass guitar goes. This happens because any cable geometry defines that cable's characteristic impedance, which tends to be low. Matching that impedance at both ends of the cable gives maximum signal transfer and flattest response. RF (and good audio) engineers like Bob Lee, Bobbybld, and agedhorse know this. At audio frequencies, bongomania's measurements show us that even one roughly matched end helps a lot. Actual unbalanced MI cables I've measured in the past run a little higher, 100-300 ohms typically.

It's the reason balanced mic and audio cables tend to be sourced from and run into (typically) 200-600 ohms. Low characteristic impedance again. Balancing adds extra rejection to noise current that is flowing on both signal conductors. The tech term for this is common mode noise.

It's rare, however, that instrument cables are either balanced or used at their characteristic impedance. The combination of the inductance and capacitance of the cable makes them act like low pass filters at RF frequencies, and to a lesser extent, for audio. And they will resonate (peak) at some frequency when connected to impedances other than the characteristic impedance. This is borne out by bongomania's later measurements. Cable length and the actual impedance at both ends also affect this.

SUMMARY - the IMO part

I buy my cables mainly for ruggedness and quality of shielding, the tech talk above notwithstanding. These are real benefits compared to the slight frequency response differences in MI use. Bongomania shows that the majority of cables have about the same capacitance (and presumably inductance) per foot, 20-50 pf. Personally, I stay away from fabric braided cables. Although they are pretty, they are often awkward (stiffer) mechanically and tend to have shield failures sooner than unbraided cable due to mechanical stresses when they are flexed (in my experience). The fabric braid and the internal shield braid have to be designed to flex the same amount to minimize this (more expensive). Remember, this is live sound usage, not studio, where cables normally are not beaten up quite so much.

If you're going to drive miles of cable (literally or figuratively) you go low impedance and balanced. The telephone company originally did this with every copper phone line. Unshielded. They restrict bandwidth to 300-3000Hz, though, which helps with noise and hum pickup.

A well shielded instrument cable will help filter some RF noise pickup exactly because as used it is a low pass filter (but not a very good one for audio) presuming the shield coverage is > 90-95% or so. This needs a tight braid (more expensive), or a foil added in addition to the braid (stiffer). Cell phones love instrument cables shielded 80% or less. Many MI cables now spec shield coverage. That's a good thing. It's important to remember that no matter what the specs say, there is no such thing as 100% shield coverage unless your shield is a copper pipe soldered at both ends to a connector flange. 98-99% is what this really means.

Great tone was recorded in studio long before Mogami or Monster existed. A little eq easily removes cable effect on tone if done correctly. Any audible overall signal loss usually indicates a bad cable.

So I use rugged unbraided cable with good shielding and good soldered plugs. It need not be expensive. Less so if you can solder.

 

[interp]

I met and spoke with Steve Swallow the other day. I noticed he was using Vovox Sonorus cables. I asked him if there was really a discernible difference. Without hesitation he answered "Absolutely." Good enough for me.

I immediately ordered a 3.5 meter Vovox Sonorus instrument cable, got it in one day (I live in Germany, not far from the Vovox facility in Switzerland), and immediately tried it out.

Mr. Swallow was right.

I'm now having Vovox make me a bridging cable for my Walter Woods stereo, and am also ordering a 1-meter patch cable.

 

[dheafey]

Check out @bongomania cable shootout. I ended up with a braided Dimarzio and am very happy with it. An additional point to consider is making sure you're taking care of your cables by wrapping them appropriately.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

If you look at bongomania's spectral measurements above, you'll see that feeding the cables from a 50 ohm impedance makes them nearly flat for audio, as far as bass guitar goes. This happens because any cable geometry defines that cable's characteristic impedance, which tends to be low. Matching that impedance at both ends of the cable gives maximum signal transfer and flattest response. RF (and good audio) engineers like Bob Lee, Bobbybld, and agedhorse know this. At audio frequencies, bongomania's measurements show us that even one roughly matched end helps a lot. Actual unbalanced MI cables I've measured in the past run a little higher, 100-300 ohms typically.

Matching the load impedance to the source impedance maximizes the power transfer, but that's really irrelevant. A few microwatts higher or lower doesn't matter in a signal that's going to be amplified anyway. What does matter is voltage transfer. The load impedance has to be many times greater than the source impedance. With passive instruments, the source impedance can be quite high, which is why instrument amp inputs tend to have input impedances of 500K to 1M, or even higher. This gives the shunt capacitance of the instrument cable a possibly significant effect on the frequency response. Active instruments typically have a relatively low source impedance, which reduces the influence of the cable's capacitance on the frequency response.

 

[Blundomatik]

A bass player friend of mine said to try the Hosa GTR (ones with the white ends) he claims to have been using them for over 10 years 8 on a pedalboard and a 25 foot from the board to amp and 25 foot from bass to first pedal and this guy is no BS artist either. Question is wouldn't you loose a ton of tone with that kind of run of cable?

 

[SirMjac28]

I use Mogami instrument cables and Monster Gold patch cables they were the first brands I went to after a bad experience with some cheap cables but there are some really good inexpensive cables like CBI cables they make some great stuff I use their speakon cables and they are fantastic.

 

[okcrum]

Matching the load impedance to the source impedance maximizes the power transfer, but that's really irrelevant. A few microwatts higher or lower doesn't matter in a signal that's going to be amplified anyway. What does matter is voltage transfer. The load impedance has to be many times greater than the source impedance. With passive instruments, the source impedance can be quite high, which is why instrument amp inputs tend to have input impedances of 500K to 1M, or even higher. This gives the shunt capacitance of the instrument cable a possibly significant effect on the frequency response. Active instruments typically have a relatively low source impedance, which reduces the influence of the cable's capacitance on the frequency response.

The impedance match also gives you a flatter response - once the match is gone, the cable becomes a distributed-element low pass filter, as you point out. I was trying to show that just matching the cable on one end (low impedance driver active bass, for example, that has enough current drive for the cable capacitance) produces a large improvement in the flatness of the frequency response (at audio frequencies). Most amp inputs are designed to be bridging, so they don't load the source. That's the hell of playing unbuffered passive instruments. High source impedance, higher destination impedance, and a connecting medium nowhere near either.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

At any rate, understanding something about cables and signal interfaces can help you buy suitable cables that do the job excellently without costing much, and without woo-woo marketing and magical endorsements.

Even better, if you also know how to both strip cable and solder it to connectors, because then you can make and/or repair your own.

 

[bongomania]

A bass player friend of mine said to try the Hosa GTR (ones with the white ends) he claims to have been using them for over 10 years 8 on a pedalboard and a 25 foot from the board to amp and 25 foot from bass to first pedal and this guy is no BS artist either. Question is wouldn't you loose a ton of tone with that kind of run of cable?

(a) People recommend all kinds of things that work for them, that won't necessarily work for anyone else.
(b) With an active bass, the cable effect is minimized.
(c) He might happen to like the eq created by the cable capacitance.
(d) He might be compensating with treble boost at the pedalboard.

 

[superchicken_VI]

I have everything from the high-end Monsters to Fender coily-cords to $5 Guitar Center specials. Probably 10 different kinds of cable. I can hear a difference between every one of them. Are the differences worth lots of money? I can hear $20 difference between my Monsters and my Belden/Switchcraft cables. If you can't hear a difference, don't spend the money.

Lots of guys with cloth ears rant about snake oil. Years of selling hifi gear proved to me how much everybody can hear the differences in equipment/cables if they sit down for 5 minutes and audition them. The important thing isn't necessarily if you can hear a difference, but if that difference is worth the money to you. Only you can decide.

I used to sell a particular power conditioner by Monster Power. That $300 power conditioner made a $5k stereo sound like a $10k stereo. Use your ears to make decisions about sound.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Lots of people brag that anyone who knows what cables (or power "conditioners") do and don't do has "cloth ears." Meh.

Everybody can hear a difference when they know which one they're listening to, but it tends to become guesswork when they have to rely on sound alone to identify the items (i.e., "double blind listening tests").

 

[superchicken_VI]

Lots of people brag that anyone who knows what cables (or power "conditioners") do and don't do has "cloth ears." Meh.

Everybody can hear a difference when they know which one they're listening to, but it tends to become guesswork when they have to rely on sound alone to identify the items (i.e., "double blind listening tests").

I did years of double-blinds with staff and customers. It's not hard to do and it is quite informative. I'll never forget ABXing speaker cables for one customer only to have him claim I was changing speakers because the change was so big.

If someone doesn't hear a sonic difference and think it's worth the price difference, he should be happy to save the money. But to claim that there's no difference and the companies are selling lies is irresponsible at best.

 

[superchicken_VI]

By the way, both of my bands use QSC mains.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

What was your ABX methodology for loudspeaker cables?